doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Stock Pitch

What is the best method to measure the pitch of a buttstock? Working with a new to me gun and it feels pretty good but results on clays is it's shooting very high. I'd like to compare pitch with several of my other guns that work quite well for me.

The best method is with a stock measuring device. A simple method is to lean against a wall with butt on the floor, best if a straight floor and wall that creates a perfect 90 degree right angle and measure distance of muzzle from the wall. An average measurement would be about 2� of down pitch, I think.

With the receiver of the gun touching the wall, and the gun butt flat on the floor, you will observe one of 3 things in regards to pitch.
1. If the gun barrel or rib (other than a tapered rib, from chamber to muzzle) is flat against the wall, that gun is said to have no (0) or neutral pitch.
2. If the barrel of the gun tips away from the wall, that gun has positive/down pitch.
3. If the barrel touches the wall and the receiver does not, that gun has negative/up pitch.

Dave Berlet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poEBXc32TRM

Allen McCannon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF6bBg5rx3M

Roger Pace
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71LRVQCRWeI

Neil Winston - The effect of pitch on muzzle rise
http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/the-...-powers.328905/

A couple of my guns shoot off my shoulder; that is when I shoot the stock seems to bounce off my shoulder requiring a remount for the followup shot. They are both without recoil pads, one being a checkered butt and the other with a hard plastic plate.

I think the problem is pitch. Can anyone explain the effects of pitch?...Geo

I measure pitch on my bench with a square. With the rib sitting on the flat surface I raise the muzzel until the square and the recoil pad touch over the entire length. Then measure the istance from the muzzel to the bench top. Routinelt 1 to 2 inches. The goal is to have the stock meet your shoulder in a manner that prevents the gun from kicking up into your face.

bill

I measure pitch on my bench with a square. With the rib sitting on the flat surface I raise the muzzel until the square and the recoil pad touch over the entire length. Then measure the istance from the muzzel to the bench top. Routinelt 1 to 2 inches. The goal is to have the stock meet your shoulder in a manner that prevents the gun from kicking up into your face.

bill

Geo, and others.......this is what Michael Yardley wrote. I consider him one of the premier writers in explaining gunfitting.

"We have not yet said much about pitch (sometimes called 'stand'). The length of the stock from the middle of the trigger to the heel and the toe control the pitch of a gun and, when taken together with the length of pull, the shape of the butt sole too. Pitch concerns the angle of the of the butt sole relative to the axis of the rib and may be measured approximately by standing the gun against a wall, with the top of the action touching it's surface and the butt sole against the floor (make sure that the wall is truly perpendicular to the floor). If you are really keen, pitch can be measured in degrees in a specialist jig (measuring in this fashion is more precise because barrel length does not affect the result). Typically, the measurement is about 2" 'pitch down' on a sporting clays or skeet gun, but may be significantly less on a dedicated trap gun (which, of course, is intended exclusively for rising targets). Some trap guns may even have positive pitch). The pitch measurement is also important on a hunting gun. In live quarry shooting, there is a need to keep well up on line as the swing progresses. The right pitch dimension will facilitate this and makes rising and crossing shots in the field significantly easier.

Rather than encouraging you to get protractors out, I would say that the simple rule for pitch is to create a stock in which the surface of the butt sole is in comfortable full-length contact with the shoulder when the gun is mounted and in which there is no unwanted tendency for the barrel to point up or down relative the line of sight. If the toe or heel of the butt sole or its centre are not in firm contact with the shoulder, or, if the pitch measurements cause the butt sole to catch or slip at the shoulder something is clearly wrong. When the gun is mounted, watch to see if the heel or toe are coming to the shoulder first. Temporary adjustments to pitch can easily be made to guns with butt plates or recoil-pads by loosening off the screws and introducing shims. Women and men with large chests may want a reduced toe measurement and, often, a rounded toe as well.

One of my approximate tests for pitch involves asking the client to point a proven empty gun at my eye from a range of about 15 feet [this is not something I do lightly or without stringent safety procedure]. As a starting point for experiment, what I want to see is the striker/firing pin hole well centred in the circle of the muzzles as I look down them (which is indicative that the gun is not tipping up or down relative to the line of sight). In case you think that this sounds rather difficult, I might add that, provided you are standing with some light behind you, it is usually surprisingly easy to see the breechface and striker hole from the muzzle end of the gun - even if you are some distance away."

I found this to be particularly clear............SRH

Putting the gun against a wall and all that mumbo jumbo of so many inches away is pretty much a useless way of measuring pitch.

Pitch is the amount of degrees off 90 that the butt sits in relation to the sighting plane. The easiest way to measure is to put the gun upside down on a flat surface (with sight bead off edge) and measure the angle that the butt is at.

More accurately would be to use a device specifically designed for measuring stocks which will mount right to the rib of the gun.

More mumbo jumbo

1920s Hunter Arms Two-Trigger Gun Order
Standard stocks with a hard rubber buttplate were 14 1/4" LOP from the front trigger, 1 5/8" DAC, 2 3/4" DAH, with a positive/down pitch of about 2 1/2" for a 30" barrel gun




For us mumbling simpletons, pitch can be specified as the difference between LOP to heel and LOP to toe

Fred Gilbert (1865-1928) was one of the world�s best known shooters from 1895-1915 and used a L.C. Smith to win the DuPont World�s Pigeon Shooting Championship in 1895 and the �E.C.� Inanimate Target Championship Cup in 1896. The �Fred Gilbert Specifications� were for a drop at comb of 1 3/8 inches; at the heel, 2 inches; length from trigger to heel, 14 1/4 inches; trigger to toe 14 1/2 inches; and trigger to center of butt 14 inches; with a full pistol grip and 30-inch full choke barrels.

Simply not true. Comparative numbers are comparative numbers. Pitch measured as inches at the muzzle or degrees of angle are both perfectly valid measurements and useful. Personally I've found the inch business far more utilitarian and of course massively simpler to obtain.

"For us mumbling simpletons, pitch can be specified as the difference between LOP to heel and LOP to toe"

Yes it certainly can but that is a meaningless number as any set of differences are meaningful only in conjunction with an also set number for the drop at the heel. Changing the drop changes the pitch even tho the heel/toe relationship remains the same.

Have not actually checked it out so do not know if it is of any benefit or not.
I do recall though some years back reading one person's opinion to take the point where you forward hand gripped the gun in shooting & extend a line from there to the center of the butt plate/pad etc. For correct pitch make the butt plate perpendicular to that line.

This would quite obviously show a fat beavertail needing less pitch than a splinter & an O/U needing still less. As I said though I have not checked any of my guns to see how they "Pitched Up" to this standard, have always relied on the standing against the wall method or measurement.

That methodology is wonderfully vague as you pointed out, not to mention a couple other variables that could be introduced! I'm sure that are all sorts of geometric relationships that change as pitch (however it may be described) changes. Unfortunately, wonderful as numbers are, not all numbers are meaningful, useful, or necessarily obtainable.

I was hoping that a true expert on everything would weigh in!

So why don't you tell us your thoughts (or thots) on stock pitch Dr. Wanker? How do you measure pitch, and how do you determine what stock pitch is best to provide the best shooting results? We're all waiting for someone like you or Jagermeister to enlighten us. Please share your shotgun wisdom.

By the way, I love your tag-line. Did you get it from a coffee mug?

Thanks to all for the explanations about pitch. Would it be excessive negative pitch or positive pitch causing my guns to "bounce" off my shoulder? mumbling simpleton...Geo

I can adjust the pitch on the plated gun with a shim and perhaps the checked gun with a moleskin patch. If I only knew which end to start with?

By the way, I shoot both guns well and they both fit; they just bounce

I know, I know just put a thin pad on both and forget it...Geo

George, it is unlikely that pitch is your problem if the stocks are unaltered. That is not to say that the pitch is NOT the problem so you should certainly check that.
I'd be going for slippery instead and some sticky kinda vest/pad thing may tell the tale on that. And perhaps a firmer grip on the gun.

May be Dr. Sane, I just don't have the problem with other guns...Geo

.....and a bit more mumbo jumbo, I�m guessing Wonko is right and pitch isn�t George�s problem. Not being a gun fitter, but skilled at mumbo jumbo, I�m wondering about LOP and gun weight. Are we talking about a very light gun George? What about LOP, is the gun short for you? Those light guns with shortie stocks seem to jump around a lot, but agin, this is mumbo jumbo...talking.

Are the bouncy guns straight grips?

SRH

The two guns are a 12ga Director Grade BSA with straight grip and a 12ga Laurona boxlock with loose pistol grip. Both fit and neither are particularly light. They both do seem to have buttstocks that end almost straight up and down. Could be Dr. Sane is right about my grip; at 70 I may be losing it. But its just these two guns so far...Geo

I think pitch, while an objective measurement, is subjective with each shooter, and depends on individual gun mount, shoulder geometry, neck geometry, and other stock dimensions, primarily drop at heel. That said, I do best with guns that have between 2 and 3 inches of down pitch at the 28 inch point on the barrels. If less that 2 inches, I find the gun butt slips down during firing, making the shot go high. Interestingly, most Parker guns with dog's head buttplates (G grade and below typically) have the requisite pitch. Most with skeleton steel buttplates (D grade and above) seem to have less down pitch, usually between 1 and 2 inches. I can't shoot them well at all. I have traded or sold those that I had, even though I love the look of the ssbp. I have shimmed an LC Smith and an Ithaca Lewis model that had low pitch with one of those tapered spacers sold by Midway and Brownells. Seemed to work, and doesnt offend the eye too badly. The standing against the wall method has always worked for my purposes, although now I can recognize the ballpark correct pitch just by looking at the gun lying on a table. Whatever works.

Reason I asked is that every straight gripped gun I own, in 12 ga., is harder to control in recoil than their pistol gripped brethren. The .410s are no problem, but that's understandable. It's just harder to control a straight gripped gun in recoil, if the recoil is considerable. Recovery from it takes a split second longer. Tighter pistol grips seem to help me handle recoil, particularly from heavy loads, better.

SRH

Absolutely, and it could be that the grips on these two guns contribute to that.

SRH