doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Manufrance Self Opener 16

Manufrance guys out there what is your opinion on this 16ga Self Opener on Gunsinternational

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=101002229

One of the few remaining guns on my bucket list. This one is very nice, but the chipped forearm and the hideous repair job to the toe diminish its value, at least to me. At somewhere in the $3,000-3,500 range I'd consider it and send it to someone like to do repairs to the forearm and hide the toe repair. At over $6,000, it's a bit overpriced.

It's not really a "self opener" in the sense of a Purdey, Lancaster, or C & H, where springs actually assist in opening and cocking the gun. Cocking the MF Ideal is done by pulling the underlever towards the stock. All the force needed to do that comes from your hand, and when you've done it, there's nothing to keep gravity from letting the barrels fall open.

These are great, iconic guns with many distinctive features, but they're not everyone's cup of tea. This seems like a very steep price to pay to find out if it's yours. Personally, I'd pass. Kirby Hoyt at Vintagedoubles.com has a few for sale for much less.

That toe repair is a bit of a mess. If you look, there are two repairs in one. Looks like they used a price that was too short so the added another slim piece to get length but the color match is even worse than the first repair. Hiding those glue lines might be a real challenge even for Mark.

I've bought a half dozen of these over the last few years.....in 16 gauge. IMHO it's priced at about twice what it should be and that would be no great deal. Remington40x is right on it terms of being a price where one might consider it. This one pales beside my 12 gauge 6R EE and I paid well under $3000 USD for it. Mind you, that was about 7 years ago.

I try to look at every MF Ideal that comes to market in NA and I'm comparing prices to what one pays when they are bought in France.

bill, the self-opening feature can be easily defeated by inverting the gun with the trigger housing up. The barrels will stay closed even if the lever is engaged. The ejected shells will also hit the ground which is another feature. As noted, the forend is ragged and the stock repair is a mess. Nice metal work, however. Gil

The gun on offer from Vintage Firearms is a model 334, just as Jay describes. It is not a "Grade 4". No such thing. There had been prior to 1931, but this gun was made in the immediate aftermath of WWII, my guess from the serial number by 1950. And in 1947, when production started up again after the war, they started on the second model designation since the "Grade 4" term had been used.

What it does have is 4 laurel barrels. (Sometimes called "wreaths"). The general barrel quality and proof loads are given a shorthand designation with the stamp of laurels, typically between 1 and 5 laurels. In theory they go up to 7 laurels but I've never seen anything higher than 5. The 4 laurels this gun has means it's pretty good. Wall thickness is about where I would expect. Most Ideals in NA do have wood damage, often from smiths who don't know how to disassemble them and who break the wood in the process.

Virtually identical gun on naturabuy. fr. at Euro 3,000.
https://www.naturabuy.fr/IDEAL-340-item-4490242.html

For all Robusts and Ideals available, look at this site:
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusils-Juxtaposes-Manufrance-robust-Ideal--critere-22241.html

If help is needed for French gun terms, check here.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480959

Gene, I looked at that gun this morning and nearly linked it. Glad you did. I agree, very similar. However, as is normal, careful watching will show up another similar grade and condition gun within six months for well less than 3000 euros.

Like the 334, that 340 is a post war but extremely early. Likely made in 1947.

The seller sent me a PM some years ago, noting my enthusiasm for Ideals and offering me the gun before listing it publicly. I believe I had met him previously at Tusla, and thoroughly enjoyed visiting with him (I did not see the gun at that time).

I believe I noted some pitting on the fences in the pics he initially sent, and had a bit of a conversation with him about what I saw, which does not now show in the listing pics.

The myth of self-opening Ideals, the fore end condition, toe "repair," and other points have been touched on. Thanks to my comrade in arms (James) concerning one of my little soap box issues- the grade stamping on the tubes. The French term comes across google translate as "palm," and it it much easier to say at one syllable. However, anyone who has handled them can clearly see it is a wreath of laurel leaves, much akin to the etymology of Stephen (Stephanos).

In addition to what's been noted, it is an ejector, not the usual extractor model. There are some serious scratches on the barrels, but even though she's been opened up (damage especially to the top strap pin/screw slots), it appears to have escaped the damage almost always done to the top strap inletting through uninformed disassembly.

As to the bores, in my experience with obviously untouched guns and barrel sets in the white, BWT comes in consistently at .038, and bores in the 16's overwhelmingly a little on the overbore size, usually .669. So I note the smaller than typical bore diameter, but still good wall thickness. While the listing says "factory original finishes," the case colors are too good for the condition of the wood, and would typically have been cyanide. There is also a lot of finish in the checkering, and some other issues with the finish that would cast a doubt or two on finishes being original. Perhaps Wild Cattle, The LaManu Sage, will weigh in.

The gun in question needs a lot of work to get it to an acceptable state, and for me, I would be averse to going north of two large in current condition.

That's what I think,

Mike

I was watching a MF on Proxibid a week or two ago. A decent 16ga with buyers premium was still under 1K. I think the model was 2R? Anyway a nice gun for the price, too bad I missed the auction.

I have one in 28ga.

the self-opening function is real and can be traced to the ejectors, an unusual option.
They push against the breech face, thereby providing the opening function...
I am not sure if this was a feature or a by-product.
Anyways, not a bad gun, but not cheap indeed.
Note the lack of St-etienne proofs. It seems like la manu was at some point authorized to do their own proofing.
All the best,
WC-

Nothing close to being a �self opener�. Assisted opening, maybe. Like WC mentioned, the system works in similar fashion as C&H Avant Tout, Mod. 21, etc. it provides some help in opening, but not much, and only under certain circumstances.

Wood wear doesn't seem to match the finishes showing on the metal.

I have a Model 244 ManuFrance with the same, self-opener spring.

Mine is a standard A&D style 16 BLE. I was told that Model 244 was made from 1932 to 1939. Leftover stock was sold until 1948 following the war.
The gun will self-open fired or unfired even when inverted. The self-opener springs are always active. They are not connected to the ejectors in any way.

I have always believed the adage that:
The French copy no one, and no one copies the French. (Think Citron CV2)

This mechanism fits the adage. I have never seen it copied or used by anyone else. It is really a cool mechanism.

It appears the self-opening springs could be removed if the feature is not needed.


Joe

One thing about these guns, it seems no matter how much you try to learn or think you know there's always something new. My Ideal has ejectors but I hadn't noticed their role in assisting opening. They sure don't make working the cocking/release lever any easier, but yes, once you cock it, the gun seems to open almost by itself. I assumed it was similar to mechanisms like the "inert" Jones underlever in hammerguns where once released gravity alone can more or less open the gun. Will have to try it inverted and see if there's any movement. I'll be impressed and a bit surprised if the ejector springs make much impression on the barrels when gravity is telling them to stay closed.

As I see it any gun which pushes the ejectors in on closing by the breech face could likewise be termed as an assisted opener. Nothing at all rare about that as this is I believe the most common method of cocking ejectors. This could thus be called rare only if the particular model of gun was rarely fitted with ejectors.

As the vast majority of the US built Lefever Arms Co guns used inframe ejectors which do not push the ejectors in by the breech with only a few of the early guns have forend ejectors then this could be considered rare on them.

Further to Miller's post, ejectors on MF Ideals are quite rare. As WC said, an unusual option.

Hey Joe, re " no one copies the French. (Think Citron CV2)," I think Casimir Lefaucheux might disagree...Lang engaged in the most amazingly brazen infringement of a patent, the center break long-gun, after seeing one at the 1851 Crystal Palace fair, that one can imagine....and we are all still copying and benefiting.:)

Re the self opening thing. having handled a few dozen Ideals, I have yet to see two identical guns. However, all the Robust Ideals inspected had lively self opening actions. How lively? As lively than the Holland action.

A few I saw had ball fences, which are for some way more appealing than the straight (humped?) backed Webley type of fence.

Re the self opening thing. having handled a few dozen Ideals, I have yet to see two identical guns. However, all the Robust Ideals inspected had lively self opening actions. How lively? As lively as the Holland action.

A few I saw had ball fences, which are for some way more appealing than the straight (humped?) backed Webley type of fence.

I would try for something with a better name.... veteran of many rainy day hunts with Bouquets a Anglais.

J�germeister:

That's a darn nice rainy day gun. I'd be proud to have it in my vault.

Rem

Are you selling that gun Jagermeister?

Oh, sorry, I forgot... you first have to own a double gun in order to sell one. My mistake.