doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Barrel Sleeving - Case Study

This thread will b e a case study for barrel sleeving. To start lets look at a gun that could possibly be a candidate. Take a look at the gun below and tell us what you see. The point here is that if you are considering sleeving a gun you need to know what you are looking at. Describe the gun in words and in BV-OQ-CC if you have the charts.


http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullcatalogue.asp?salelot=A0314+++1704+&refno=+++74893

DDA

The gun is a Woodward BLE with full coverage engraving. The barrels are cut and wall thickness below 20 thou. The stock has seen some use because the drop points do not look crisp. Not a lot in the description concerning action tightness. Woodward is a Brand Value of 1. The Original Quality is 5. Current Condition is probably 8 (marginal, but shootable depending on the low MWT location). BV1-OQ5-CC8 = ~$1167.

If you assume the cost to do a quality sleeving is over $3500, not sure it is worth it.

Ken

Please excuse my ignorance, but where are you getting these BV-OQ-CC values from?
Dave

As a boxlock, sold by Woodward, it was very probably made in Birmingham by W & C Scotts, Midland, or another. If so it will be a good sound gun, but probably not 'made' by Woodward.
How that works in 'brand value' and 'original quality', I have no idea. I don't know how those charts are meant to apply to guns with a big name, but probably more humble origins (as most big name boxlocks are).
In my view, it's value is what it makes at auction, and so Holt's estimate is the guide as it stands now.
IF it was sleeved, (again in my opinion) any increase in value would not cover the cost of the work.
The only reason I can see to sleeve would be if the gun had sentimental, or family heritage appeal.

Or if the buyer had the means to do the sleeving himself, or through a barter.

Excellent thread, Don. I don't have your charts, not being a dedicated English gun aficionado, but I am very interested in following the case study.

Thanks, SRH

So, it's a $1000 gun according to Holtz and Ken says a resleeving would run $3500. But the finished gun would not be worthy of the investment?

I think it would be well north of that mark from what I see around the web. Maybe export costs and shipping to the US would eat up some of that profit, but done in the UK, it would seem quite reasonable to fix up that gun.

That would be another good reason. I have nothing against sleeving, and own 2 sleeved guns. However, it is an expensive process, and generally to be financially viable, needs to be on a gun in the higher value brackets (i.e. a better grade sidelock).

It is also done on scarce early guns (such as better grade hammer guns), but the majority of boxlocks were made as inexpensive guns when new, and current values reflect that. Shame as many boxlocks are very nice guns, and handle as well as their sidelock cousins and are probably more reliable as well!

I think that sleeving (in real terms) has increased in cost faster than used gun values, particularly mid and lower range English guns. Whereas a few years ago it might have been worth sleeving a good quality boxlock, especially one with fine wood as a few have, now, it is unlikely to make sense.

I keep meaning to get a nice English boxlock, but have never got round to it.

Why bother? That�s the real question to me. If that gun was in high condition with 30� barrels what would it be worth? $3500, 4,000? If you bought that gun for $1100.00, then sent it out for sleeving for 1500-2000 and then pay to have it shipped to you for 400-450 you are going to have 3,000-3550 in it. Add in a freshening up of the stock for another 100-200 and you just paid full price for a sleeved gun. Worse as other pointed out that gun was retailed by them but most likely brought in in the white if not even more finished.

You can get sleeving done for different prices and my 1,500-2000 might be on the low end for what you want. A invisible sleeve job may be more. I�m sure if you lived in GB and had friends in the trade you could shop around. We don�t. And I can�t count the number of auction guns which I liked, that seem to go for 150-250% of estimate. Either keep it as is or don�t buy it.

Really? $4k for that gun in high condition? Where? No where I've been looking.

As a person who has built a number of high quality custom rifles for hunting and competition, the first rule is that one will never get back what one invests in the venture. I hear it is the same with rehabbing old cars and trucks, tractors, and just about anything else. Why would shotguns be different?

"Sleeving" is when a shotgun has its old barrels cut away and new barrels placed into the monobloc that remains after the old barrels were cut away

"Resleeving" is when a set of shotgun barrels that were previously sleeved (as above) are sleeved for the second time (or third time and so forth) in the method described.

This is a Birmy boxlock with a big �name� on the side. To me, high condition is decent, 80-90% not a mint condition gun. I would not pay more than 4K for a box lock with a �name� on the side when I could get the same gun with a lesser name on it for half or two thirds the price. People need to stop buying the name on the gun instead of buying the gun for what it is.

Here is a perfect example. In the 1970�s Ford sold the Pinto runabout for about 3k new. They also made the same car and put the name Bobcat on it for Mercury and priced it 500-600 more for the same car. I�m not buying a Pinto dressed up as a Bobcat for the extra money. A Birmy gun is a Birmy gun. If you put H&H on it but know it was made in Birmy are you willing to pay twice what that gun would sell for if it had Clyde on the side of it? I�m not. So yeah, it�s a 4K gun to me.

Good luck finding one at that price.

4K buys a lot of British boxlock these days. With that kind of budget you can shop around some. Hard to see the value in sleeving anything but a small bore boxlock or a good sidelock in this market. I have nothing against sleeved guns as shooters but can not see spending big bucks on one.

4k won't buy a sleeved gun BV1 gun

for instance
http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx?tabid=30

Here is another, not even BV1

http://www.hillrodandgun.com/picture.php?id=12878

I think we are conflating what we, individually would do, versus what the market value is - and none of us dictate market value.

On another thread, I said I wouldn't be interested in any gun with a significant butt extension except as a candidate for restocking. So my value for these is quite low, but clearly the market value is quite a bit higher.

LeFusil might even pay me to not post pictures of my Merkel because he finds them so ugly, and this is now part of my financing plan to replace my Merkel with a nice British gun that might be sleeved, but won't have an extended stock.



Send me a Benjamin, LeFusil and I'll take the photo down

BV1 sidelock or boxlock? A whole bunch of choices out there. I agree w/ KY Jon, buy the gun not the name. You can find a ripper of a boxlock with that budget. A board member just bought what appears to be an excellent condition, used but no abuse, BV3 sidelock for under 1500$ in the UK. personally I would take the provincial maker sidelock over a used up boxlock with a London name. One more thing to consider is how long some of these guns sit and do not sell. You are seeing asking prices not sale prices published.

Again the name means nothing to me. Value the gun. Value the quality. Value the condition. Screw two inches of engraving on the side when you know it is just letters put on a Pinto by the engraver. This is a solid basic Birmy gun with a little upgrade just like the Bobcat had better hubcaps and the name Bobcat on it instead of Pinto. It�s a solid gun but nothing out of the ordinary. If you saw this same gun with Clyde engraved on the side would you be this interested in it? If you were the asking price would be 20-30-40% less. They probably order it for a customer at his request or perhaps they ordered 50 of them for resale. Not everyone can afford a best side lock. Still it is what it is, a Birmy box lock with better engraving and a name.

In a local (and very reputable) dealer here in the UK, original 12 bore boxlock ejectors in 'good condition' and original barrels are listed as between (GBP) 1750 and 3800. There are 8 listed between GBP 2000 and 3000. Most are 28" barrels. These would come with a full warranty and gunsmith backup. Being UK, they (most anyway) would have 2 1/2" chambers. A couple are cased.

A sound English non ejector can be had for GBP 250 from the same dealer.

These are fairly typical prices from reputable dealers for good Birmingham boxlock ejectors.

You guys are proving my point, over and over.

While WE are getting so technical cutting off a set of barrels does NOT leave a Mono-Block, unless the gun was originally built with one. By Definition a mono-block is when the breech section is made from ONE (Mono) solid piece. Cutting off the barrels does not turn a chopper lump, dovetail or any other type of breech assembly into a mono-block, the Brazing seams are still there.

If you want to "Correct" someone else's terminology be certain you have your own Ducks in a Row.

Brent,
Nice presentation picture of your Merkel, nicely composed.
Karl

Brent�D, the real point is that this is not a true BV1 gun. It�s a Birmy gun with a BV1 retailers name on it. Buy the gun, not the name on it. They did not make this, they only retailed it. At best they bought it in the white. They sent it out for engraving like every other maker. Might have finished it or might have done nothing on it at all. Proof marks might tell. So why pay Bobcat prices for that Pinto? Never figured Bobcat bragging rights were that important.

This is exactly what Rocketman's charts demonstrate so accurately....the premium people are willing to pay to have the "name" on the gun. As people everywhere are willing to pay extra to have any "brand" name on a product. Not unique to guns.

The problem many here don't seem to understand is that members here represent a tiny portion of the market and one that is substantially better educated than most buyers. We don't "need" the brand name to identify a well made gun. We can use our eyes. Not true for many others who need the stamp of approval a recognized brand name conveys.

I shoot with a couple close friends on occasion. Members of a private high end preserve. Gun room is filled with "brand names". Few of the members can tell you what specifically makes their gun cost what it does, save the makers name.

Thank you for pointing out my error. "Stubs" is probably the better term for me to have used. Also it probably would have been better if I had used the term tubes lieu of barrels as it is more common term among those of us who have sleeved barrel sets.

Trousers.....

canvas, I think we like to knock folks that can spend that much on a "name" but again, you aren't shooting a just as effective Remington Express, are you?

I was swapping notes with another member recently and he mentioned how extractor guns take a hit for lacking ejectors but he didn't really care one way or the other about ejectors vs extractors. Nor do I. And I have heard the same from almost every shooter of vintage doubles that I've ever met. But we all know that ejector guns bring a substantial premium to the table. Ditto the boxlock vs. side locks.

So we all have things we claim are falsely valued based on our own willingness to pay for them. But, were we to inherit such BV1, sidelock gun, or an ejector gun, I am sure that, if we were honest, we would all expect to be paid those premium values if we sold it.

I'll still say that the gun in question, well sleeved, will easily sell for more than it would cost to buy it and do the work.

Brent, perhaps you misunderstand me. I�m not knocking anyone. Just pointing out human behaviour.

Both in the propensity of those who can afford to pay for the name rather than spend the time learning and for those like us, motivated to learn what makes a gun �good� and to look for the gems that give us the quality while saving the brand name premium.

That said when it�s time to sell, of course we want to get the market price. Just as when we are buying we want to undercut the market price.

canvas, don't know many people that own what Rocketman calls BV1 guns, but those that do know exactly what they are talking about and they know guns very, very well. I don't knock folks as being ignorant because their guns are high grade. Ever. 'cuz they ain't.

This whole thread is very disingenuous.

Kirk Merrington's price for sleeving is $1900 plus tubes (http://www.merringtongun.com). Of course sleeving a gun in the states will take it out of proof unless you pay another expense for sending back to England. Dig Haddoke estimates �1500-3000 for sleeving in England (https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/articles/thin-barrels/).

Although the Woodward may have been built by a Birmingham maker, there will be some additional brand value for the Woodward name. An H&H boxlock made by Webley and Scott will bring a premium over the same boxlock being sold by Webley and Scott. I guess people are willing to pay more for the H&H BLE because of some perceived quality control over the standard W&S boxlock.

Rocketman used a BLE for this s example and most people wouldn't spend the money for sleeving a boxlock.

Ken

After looking around the net at various well known and not so well known dealers, that gun at $1000, sleeved for $3500, cannot be beat. You guys may not buy, and I certainly couldn't, but the value is definitely there relative to what else is out there. $4500 Woodward Boxlocks and similar are nowhere to be seen. Comparable guns are at least 50% more. And up.

After looking around the net at various well known and not so well known dealers, that gun at $1000, sleeved for $3500, cannot be beat. You guys may not buy it, and I certainly couldn't, but the value is definitely there relative to what else is available. $4500 Woodward Boxlocks and similar are nowhere to be seen. Comparable guns are at least 50% more. And up.

Who�s knocking anyone?

I can think of 4 people right off who have a BV1 gun. And none of them know anything about them except they are the �best�. Two are inherited, two have been bought.

It�s like people who buy 500 series Benz�s. Some know the detail of why the cars are so good but most just want to know they have the �best� car and have the money to do that. My ex drives a Maserati. She knows nothing about cars but she sure likes the reaction the car engenders. Nothing wrong with that. That is part of the value of brand names.

Their estimate is approx. $700-$1000 American. Not sure about the 20% VAT since we do not pay it however the shipping is probably a lot more so Rocketman's chart seems to come pretty close to their estimate. Not sure what the sleeving will cost however you have a choice of barrel length and we all know 32" is doable assuming the handling characteristics are acceptable. Would that make it a bargain in the end?

using the charts the only change is to move it up to CC6 changing its value to $2671. That seems a bit light even though it has sleeved barrels and not replaced barrels.

The gun actually sold for �500 in Mar 2014 Holts ; look at lot 1704. I think Holts only shows the hammer price and the price does not reflect the additional 25% buyer's premium.

Rocketman's spreadsheet provides a current condition pigeon hole for replacement barrels, but not sleeved barrels. Is a properly sleeved gun a big negative?

Ken

BV is a strange thing.

The late Gough Thomas (real name G.T. Garwood) was guns editor for Shooting Times here in the UK for many years. An engineer by training and trade he had an analytical mind and understood quality well. Later in life he had the opportunity (late 1940s) to have a 'best gun' made for himself. He could afford any maker. He was a very respected and knowledgeable man.

He chose Henry Atkin, the spring opener model. He felt the Beesley patent action was the 'best' action around, and the Henry Atkin gun using it slightly ahead of the Purdey for smoother operation (it uses Southgate ejectors rather than Purdeys Wem/Lawrence). The Southgate type are arguably a little easier and smoother in cocking, giving an easier gun closure - always a little harder in a self opener.

Yet today, an Atkin spring opener though still very well regarded, but doesn't command the price a Purdey would - and by quite a significant margin.

The Purdey name has the 'cachet'.

It is quite likely that it would be economic to sleeve a Purdey, much less so an Atkin, because the monetary value is less - but arguably, the Atkin might have the edge as a gun to actually own and use in the field.

(I must declare an interest as an Atkin owner)

I feel that the gun was made in Birmingham by W&C Scott perhaps, but I've rarely seen a Scott that looked like that! It all goes back to buying the gun and not the name, but I like beautiful guns no matter who made them.
I think it would be more fair to have chosen a maker know for their boxlocks, but I have to admit, that Woodward's a beauty.
Karl

Or, you can create a gun you could not have otherwise. I took an 0-frame 16 Gauge Parker hammer gun with unsafe barrels, sent it to Brad Bachelder and he sleeved 32� barrels to the monobloc and rechambered it to a 20 gauge. Great shooter and I�ve been offered quite a bit more for it than I have in it.

Some guns just deserve being saved.
Karl

Seeing where the gun was located and the advertising that it's out of proof, I'd be in the camp hoping someone wanted to work with it. It seems the alternative would be for a proof house to wreck it forever. Too bad the government there wouldn't just pack similar things up and send them to other places in the name of historical and artistic preservation.

Craigd,

The description doesn't say the gun is out of proof. It just has a thin wall (<20 thou) on the right barrel.

Ken

I agree - I have an Atkin made to the same specs as GT's gun. Well worth the asking price and half the cost of a Purdey.

I would argue that, rather then sleeve a gun, some deserve to have a new set of barrels fitted.

I have a Harkom 16 with barrels by Hellis, Beesley and Watson that was well worth the price <$1500!! Wonderful bird gun.

I was just jumping to conclusions Ken, sorry about that. Usually, if something is thin, but okay, it probably wouldn't be mentioned. In this case it says under, what I don't know, but the sale price would make me think all the bidders on that gun knew money would have to be sunk into it.

On a side note, the gun is near seven pounds with cut barrels. I wonder if it's a less common specialty gun, like a pigeon or waterfowl gun, bumping up the value a bit.

Dtm, I've spent a fair amount of time over the past 20+ years developing a set of charts that show Brit and Continental gun values (not to be confused with prices) as functions of Brand Value (BV), Original Quality (OQ), and Current Condition (CC). Several of the guys here have and use said charts with a very good level of expertise. While not "gospel," the charts have over the years shown a good correlation to auction results (a public knowledge of gun prices). The value of the charts is to jump-start learning. They require some expertise to use, but seem to provide a good return in speeding up the learning necessary to evaluate Brit and Continental guns.

Post back if you have further questions.

DDA

Good study so far!!

OK, here is what I saw with the listing.

1. A late 1940's serialed Woodward BLE (W&S Propritary)--- BV1

1 1/2. W&S Proptitary --- OQ6 (mid-grade BLE)

2. Barrels have been cut behind chokes --- ding

3. Broad rib with 2 3/4" chambers and large action --- fowler/pigeon

4. Best engraving --- better than usual but not best --- small kaching

5. Very slight traces of CCH --- CC4 (maybe?)

6. Better than usual stock --- OQ5 1/2-CC3 1/2 --- kaching

BV1-OQ5 1/2-CC3 1/2 = $4,400

BUT what about those cut barrels? Somewhere between BV1-OQ5 1/2-CC7 or 8 = $1,600 or $1,000. Auction estimate lines up pretty well. So, I did my due diligence. Purdey's own the Woodward records and kindly confirmed it was a 30" barreled pigeon gun, bought-in in the white from W&S and sold Oct. of 1946 (that is relatively modern). Holt's confirmed the stock and engraving were better than usual, the action was sound, and the gun didn't appear to have been shot excessively. Previous research on my part showed this was the only boxlock pigeon Woodward ever made.

Intangibles. I have a modest collection of Woodwards and a substantial virtual collection of Woodwards. I suspect a mid-weight "pigeonish" gun would suit me nicely. I'm a collector-shooter and have a modest bias against non-OE guns.

Should I buy it with the understanding I will most likely need to sleeve it?

DDA

DDA,
Is there a separate chart showing a dollar value to assign to the BV,OQ, and CC to come up with the gun's value?
Karl

Karl, there are five charts organized on BV; BV1 - BV5. Each chart has a nine OQ by nine CC pigeon hole matrix (81 holes); 405 total pigeon holes. Each pigeon hole has a dollar value for 12 bore, SXS, USA average retail based on auction results (allowing for premiums and shipping and dealer costs).

If that didn't answer your question, post back.

DDA

Absolutely. First, if it's a one off, there not much point in waiting around for another one to turn up. Second, you already did your homework so there's a fair chance you'll come in under budget, but it doesn't matter if it stays in the ballpark. And, last but not least, let's see the pictures. Has it been about enough time to have it nicely sleeved and the end of that rib carefully recreated?

Don,

Nice to see the rest of the story on this gun. It looks like this gun is a niche for your collecting/shooting habits. You know what it will cost to sleeve it and put it back closer to its original specs. Did you buy it?

Ken

DDA,
I believe that did explain it, how can I access the charts?
Karl

Is the cost of making new top and bottom ribs (especially a nicely matted or checkered top rib) included in a sleeve job that takes the barrel length from, let's say, 28" to 32"? New ribs are required when going to a longer barrel length, are they not? My thought is the making and laying of new ribs is a job requiring a lot of time and skill.
JR

good point, re: ribs. Am following with interest as have a BV1 side lever hammergun. Not this one but you get the idea.
https://www.hollandandholland.com/2017/05/brevis-collection-lady-churchills-28-bore/
12 ga - ding
non-original fore-end - ding!
27" barrels - ouch!
(Not engraved "Lady Churchill" either) Style is actually a little different as the lever is more rearward.

PM me your email and do you run excel? I'll send you a set of charts as soon as we have contact.

DDA

Your case is exactly on point as to why I'm running this case study. I'll pose the next question later today or tomorrow. I hope this study will give you a pattern for thinking on your gun.

DDA

[/quote]

Your case is exactly on point as to why I'm running this case study. I'll pose the next question later today or tomorrow. I hope this study will give you a pattern for thinking on your gun.

DDA[/quote]

Thanks. Need to take some better photos but here is the gun you got me thinking about.

Rocketman;

Your data base of gun "values" interests me. Assuming these values (let's call them market values) are what individuals were inclined to pay for gun(s) during the data base collection period, is the data contained in an software application that could produce "curves" of the market value of the same gun(s) over the 20 year period?

DDA,
I'm have Windows 7 with adobe and pdf capability. I believe your PM's are full and can't accept any more.
Karl

No answer yet to my question about the ribs...
JR

John,

New ribs will cost more. Look at Kirk Merrington website. He lists a charge of $500+ for new ribs.

Ken

Karl, I'll send you a hard copy. First, I'll fix my PM box. Monday PM me your snail mail address.

DDA

John, patience, please, we will get there shortly.

DDA

Bush, My data is not quite that extensive. At least once a year I run a goodly number of the pigeon holes and look for correlation. There haven't been any curves so far. 15 years ago OI saw more outliers on the high side, but not enough to call it a trend. Now, I'm expecting to see more outliers on the low side. Whether there enough guns selling below value to call it a trend is yet to be seen. The "curves" you ask about are actually flat at this time.

Bright question!

DDA

DDA,
Thank you, it's much appreciated.
Karl

OK, so, I bought the gun for 500 BPS; only bid. It was about $1000 all in without shipping. I figured at worst I had a cheap enough wall hanger/sometimes skeet gun/flushing bird gun. At best, it might be near custom sporting clays gun.

I hooked up with Toby Barclay to start the ball rolling. Toby agreed that it was a mid-grade BLE; robust and reliable. Surprises were minimul and on the good side. For $3500 I could have the action stripped cleaned and set right, the stock cleaned up and polished, and high quality invisibly sleeved 32" barrels (ribs welded up for extension). That made it around the same cost as the gun would have valued with original barrels. Should I have it sleeved?

DDA

That is a sensible price at which to buy. It's nice that it was bought by someone who has done the research before purchase.

On the second question, Yes - if you want a nice interesting gun to those specifications; No, if you want to try and sell on in the near future.

Just my opinions.

Based on what I see, I don't think you would have any trouble selling that refitted shotgun for a 25% profit and probably for closer to a 50% profit. I think refitting it is a sure bet.

I agree with John. It is a one off gun from a great maker, but it would be difficult on the resale side. However, getting money back on a gun isn't why people buy guns.

Ken

Only curious Rman, why 32 inches. Since it left the factory at 30", sleeving to that length along with best guess striking might be considered more of a restoration than going non oe. Plus, a little bit back you had mentioned a middish weight pigeon gun might be nice.

No big deal, 32 inches could be really nice, and the stock seems to have some length to it for a bit of fitting if you'd want. I'd be in the camp of why care if you lost a chunk of change on a theoretical resale. It's way more interesting than say a Parker Reproduction or similar.

Great discussion.

I think JohnfromUK has it exactly right.

BrentD...in what market do you think the example (after sleeving) would register a profit?

Just curious; we're not seeing that kind of market on the East Coast.

Jeremy, I'm just surfing auction sights and dealers on line.

Hill Rod and Gun
Puglisi
Champlin's
Vintage Doubles
Dismal River
various auction houses, Amoskegue, Kramer, RIA, Gunbroker of course, etc.

For the last month or two, I've been shopping around for a nice double for Gus and I to use this fall as a mainstay gun. My price range is not so high as the $4500 that would be invested in this proposed gun but I see plenty of them out there in that range, and they go for much more than what folks on this forum claim to be reasonable prices. I have seen this before with forum discussions, prices claimed are usually much less than what the market at the time seems to bear. Certainly, folks can find some especially good deal somewhere, but the average market price always seems to be well above what forum discussions claim them to be.

I'm continuing to knock around in the $3k and below range, and while I think prices are depressed a bit from 5 yrs ago or so, I don't think the bottom has fallen out of the market either. Finding a nice British double in my price range is a bit challenging, but then I'm pretty picky about what I want too.

Well, I did have it sleeved --- the whole enchalada.

Why 32" barrels? Because I also did handling prediction calculations and I needed the extra length to get the swing efforts I wanted. I have kept track of the handling characteristic numbers of guns I've used for several years and had a tolerance range for weight, balance (teeter-totter), unmounted swing effort and mounted swing effort. The problem was that there is no MOI measurement in the UK. So, I had to make up a set of barrel specs that would be acceptable and useful to the sleever.

The result was a gun within tolerance on all four numbers. I love it and am shooting it increasing well. It is bored mod right and full left. It is fed 3/4 oz loads and puff balls skeet targets when I do my part. It is usable on trap, but really needs a higher stock. I haven't had the time yet to really wring it out on 5-stand or sporting clays.

The stock and barrels were better than I expected. There is a small "wart" where the upper rib is welded --- but then, it isn't a best work gun.

I can't imagine a better looking and shooting Woodward BLE for $4500. I have no worry about getting my money back as it will not be for sale in my shooting lifetime.

DDA

Congratulations on making a really well thought out plan and executing it. I would love to see pictures of the whole gun.

Don,

Glad you put this case study together and congrats on getting what you wanted in the gun! How long did the sleeving a nod refinish take?

Ken

Thank you for a very engaging story. I too would like to see overall pictures of the completed gun.

Really enjoyed the case study and the discussions. Looking forward to seeing some photos.
Karl

If you look outside English-made the pickings can be ok.....
Two barrel set with reputable European name... One set of barrels has choke-tubes making it very practical choice. If I needed good classic double I would look at this offering.

That's a very nice gun and although it is not a pistol-grip stock, I might overlook that detail if it was affordable. Unfortunately, it is still about $1000 above my ceiling. Also interesting that the most constricted choke is only 00.02". I'd want something tighter, and perhaps Briley could retrofit one to work. But just the base gun is too high unless you know someone that would trade me 10 Benjamins for a Nikon spotting scope and a European double barrel muzzleloader.

And now, the plot thickens. Remember that Dig Hadoke wrote his idea of building a custom gun on a best work action with as bad a stock and barrels as you can in his "Vintage Guns," page 153. Well, yours truly was well into the planning of such a venture when the Woodward BLE showed up at Holt's. There is a very "thread bare old gentleman" (think Woodward SLE) awaiting rebirth. I have increased confidence in Dig's theory due to the BLE. However, I also have increased awareness of the need for very careful and thorough advance planning.

Pictures in a day or two.

DDA