doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com value British guns with stock extentions

The thread on resleeved British guns got me thinking about similar British guns with wooden stock extensions. These seem to be extremely common - perhaps because they don't sell well (?).

Some stock extensions are better done that others, but I have yet to see one that I found palatable. Am I just overly picky? I would rather have a resleeved Brit gun than original barrels and a stock extension.

So, by what percentage does a stock extension tend to depress the value of the same gun with a normal stock? I'm thinking of guns in the $3-5k range, not "best" guns that are simply beyond my zip code of affordability.

Brent, to me a mismatched stock extension isn't acceptable. I would not buy the gun. If I did have one it would be in a box one the way to Mark Larson to be grain painted to match. JMHO...Geo

Geo, I'm definitely with you. I would have to be ready to restock it, and it would have to be priced accordingly.

Brent,
I've seen many nice guns that I would consider, only to be put off by the stock extention. I think George has the best solution as far as looks are concerned. I find mismatched stock extentions right up there with visible sleeving marks or rings.
Karl

Depends on price point/gun value and size of extension to me. Small to moderate size one is fine on a shooter, not acceptable at all on a high grade collector piece. Just my view.

SKB, I am interested only in shooters. But I still think the extensions are just unacceptable. I'm also pretty ill disposed to recoil pads, even solid ones, and if they are especially thick or using spacers. But to me, they stock extension gun would have to be at 1/2 normal price for me to even think about it and I'd still probably not do it.

I enjoy looking at the guns on a site like hillrodandgun.com which always has a nice selection of doubles but I am always surprised at the number of them that have stock extensions of several inches, or really thick recoil pads that simply do not compliment the woodwork.

Here are two examples
The first is a Grant with a 5/8" extension and priced at $6800.
http://www.hillrodandgun.com/picture.php?id=12876
This gun is too expensive for my wallet, but even if I could afford it, there is no way I could live with it at is. I might, in the case, slice off the extension and live with a leather pad. Maybe.


Here is a second gun that was priced at $5500 and apparently sold. It is a Churchill with a 2" extension. This would be a restocking project so far as I'm concerned and it's too expensive at that price for me to consider in that light.
http://www.hillrodandgun.com/picture.php?id=12855


So, of course, these are only my feelings and VERY uninformed opinions, but I am curious if I am in the same ballpark as most people or not.

Well, like you just said, they�re shooters, they aren�t looking for compliments.

Im with SKB on this one. The previous owner did what they had to do to get the gun to shoot somewhere in the vicinity that they needed it to. Even if the gun was bought at 1/2 the price, restocking is going to cost more than the gun is worth. Once you decide to restock, you�re at the point of no return, monetary return that is. Unless you�re doing the work yourself.
If you�re buying �shooter� grade guns, you�re just gonna have to live with some of bumps, bruises and add-ons that come with them.

The problem is that most men 100 years ago were smaller in size than men today. At 6� 4� my grandfather was one of or the tallest men in his division when it went to France in WWI. Most men were in the 5� 6�- 5�10� range. So a gun made to fit a short armed man would rarely fit one of us today. That�s why I see so many 13-14� guns. To make them stretch out to the 14+� I need a pad or extension is needed. And I hate any pad greater than about 3/4� ok ine with a white line in it.

Every gun with a extension is just a shooter as far as I am concerned. How desperate are you for another shooter. Restocking sounds like an option but cost for a proper job kills all sales under 6-7K. You can�t put 3k into a 3k gun unless it is free.

Ky Jon, I'm not desperate at all. I'm only looking to please myself, but I frequently find these guns that I consider vastly overpriced because of the extensions, and I guess there are more people willing to live with that than I thought.

If you have seen the pictures I've posted of my doubles, then you know I don't mind bumps and bruises, and I'm definitely not fishing for compliments. In fact, I appreciate them as part of the history and patina of the gun, but stock extensions are so far beyond bumps and bruises. I guess it is just me (and Geo).

A shooter gun does not bring top price. It has a major flaw(s) and should be priced as such. I�d rather have a extension than 80% of the crappy sleeved barrels out there. Invisible is fine but some look like rejects from welding class in high school.

Brent,
I looked at that Churchill when i was looking for a lightweight gun. That is probably the best extention I've seen. I passed because I wanted a 2 1/2" gun. George brought up a good solution to have Mark Larson blend it in. I've seen his website and he is amazing, though I'm not sure of the cost.
Shooter or not, you still have to look at it.
Karl

Karl, that Churchill IS a 2 1/2" gun.

I am assuming it is a 12 bore but I dont' see that listed anywhere. The website is very inconsistent about actually listing the gauge of the gun that is being sold. Often not the chokes either. I can't figure out why such basic info is not included.

Anyway a very nice gun, but not for me.

the second gun - the Churchill lightweight boxlock - is pretty unusual and very high quality. I'd have bought it at $5500 and restocked it, expecting that my investment ($3000 to $4000) in restocking would eventually be repaid. I guess I look at guns as toys and not investments.

Yes, it is in fact a 2 1/2" gun. I had looked at so many, some 2" ones, it gets confusing. Anyway, Mark Larson's stock treatment looks interesting.
Karl

FWIW, I acquired a British SLE with a 13 inch LOP that I had Mark Larson extend and grain paint. The joint is invisible, even in bright sunlight and the grain pattern very attractive. The price was quite reasonable, considering all the work done.

I'd do it again in a heartbeat, particularly if I were able to beat the purchase price down because of the short LOP or an unmatched extension.

Can Mark blend the the grain with paint with a previously extended stock?
Karl

Maybe this is a question for Karl to answer since he just bought a similar, but unextended Churchill (yours is spectacular by the way). What would the value of this extended Churchill be (the on at hillrodandgun.com) if its stock was one piece and normal?

$11K? Substantially more than $11K? Substantially less?

Karl:

Yes, he can.

Paul

Would most of these guns be back to original length if the extensions were removed? Might be some deals out there for guys like me with shorter arms who would want to go the other way, meaning having the extension removed and a buttplate made.

I break gun buyers into shooters, shooter-collectors, collector-shooters, and collectors. Collectors value originality, high grade /uniqueness, scarcity, brand, provenance, etc. Collector-shooters value collector factors but expect to shoot the gun --- well of for great fun. Shooter-collectors value shooting factors above collector factors. Shooters are happy with gas pipe barrels, die cast zinc actions, and balsa stocks (figured or not) if the gun shoots well.

Individuals are more or less unique, so they are entitled to their own set of wants and wishes.

DDA

Paul,
Thats good to know for future reference.
Brent,
I think I can answer that because before I bought the Churchill I did extensive research (homework) to the extent that my eyes hurt! According to the literature (The house of Churchill, Hadokes book, the Blue Book of gun values) My gun is an early prewar #1867 and best quality boxlock. At the time Churchill only made a hammer and hammerless sidelock as well a one boxlock. The call for best quality is evidenced by the Churchill monogram on the bottom of the receiver and done prior to the grading of the guns after Edwin's death in 1910, which was only put on his best work. My gun so marked is the precurser to the Hurcules, considered the best there after. Prewar guns also have a square forend diamond opposed to the later elongated one.
I believe the feather weight designation came post WW1, also the third fastener was dropped. The gun at Hill Rod and Gun I believe represents something near the Hercules quality. Market is usually $9,000 for one in 98% condition.
Although done as nicely as I've seen, I think that $5,500 is on the high side since it has the 25" barrels instead of at least 26" ones. A better decription of the gun would have helped also. In spite of the 25" barrels, those barrel walls have to be very thin to make the 5lbs. 5oz. weight. Mine is 5lbs. 12oz. and light enough for my long walks.
Hope this helps without being overly long.
Karl

Thanks Karl, that is perfect.

gunsaholic,
To your point, I bought a German SxS hammer combination gun with extended stock. The extension was "let in" to the original stock and was held on only by longer buttplate screws. Take the extension off and the buttplate fits the original stock.
Mike

I am definitely in the shooter category, but I just couldn't live with a wooden extension. If I found a gun I really wanted that had one, I might consider buying it a discount and replacing the wood extension with a spacer and a recoil pad. I can live with that, and one sxs I use a lot is set up this way. So if the wooden extension is over 1.5", I would just pass on it.

How did that work? The extension would need a longer buttplate if it was anything like the extensions I've seen.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as this thread shows! I would personally rather have a well done stock extension with matching figure and grain like Mark Larson does so well, than a thick Silvers pad. I have seen previous extensions on which Mark has perfectly matched the grain and figure with the original stock. He also does his own extensions and matches the grain and figure perfectly to the original stock. In both cases with seamless results. That said, if all you need is an extra half inch or so of LOP, a Silvers pad or a leather covered pad looks fine to me. There is no right answer on any of this, just personal choices made by us so that we can enjoy the old shotguns we like to shoot.

I have no problem with a wood extension on my shooters. As I usually need an even longer stock than commonly found, I use a leather Tourbon slip on pad. It covers the extension and I think looks quite nice.

Horn extensions 3/8� or less, and if done right (highly buffed and then checkered) look great to me. Any extension over 1/2� is hard on my eyes, except a recoil pad, leather covered being the best. Any pad over 1� looks like hell too. Like the horn, I�ve seen some thin ebony extensions that look very nice too, but again, no more than 3/8�, less even better. So, Brent......if these parameters are met, I don�t discount the guns too much when I make a purchase, especially if I intend to use them. An unsightly extension, and if I see I have no good fiscal recourse to remedy, I discount them by at least 25-35% if I�m doing the buying, and use that as a bargaining chip with the seller. Sometimes it works with a seller. At least that�s how I do it.

Brent,
It just looked funny at the toe. The wood didn't match either.
Mike

Years ago Mark Larson presented via pictures to this board some original examples of how he extended length. Maybe he can find those pictures and show them again.

I have added a wood extension of 1 1/2" of perpendicular grain using a contrasting wood grain. American Walnut stock with a high end type English Walnut. Beretta did something similar on a few guns that you may have seen. It looked OK, maybe better than a rubber pad of the same size.

I can live with leather pads under an inch, preferably around 3/4", any more begins to look "cobbled" together.

Leave it to the Germans to think of such a great idea....

I prefer a gun without a stock extension, but I like them better than a big, thick pad and a bunch of spacers. And I do like small bore British guns, and I have several that I liked well enough that I bought them in spite of the extensions.

So I will tolerate a stock extension if I really like the gun otherwise. You can always restock it or do a butt transplant. And I find that I don't notice the extension when I am hunting.

Extended stock guns have no collector value unless they have enough value to survive a top quality restock.

Eightbore: Are you talking a 2� extension here or a 1/4� horn butt plate extension? There is a difference you know. Please qualify this statement.

Well, I asked this question in this line about wife's William Evans (ordered Nov 1900-delivered Jul 1903) - photos unfortunately held hostage by extortioners: (and anybody who is still paying those crooks deserves to be shunned): http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=475388

I asked a local gunsmith about this. His advice (and the collective advice of this board) was since the gun would be used by women (wife and daughter-in-law) for the most part, take the extension off, keep it and add a new (but period) orange pad. 13 1/2" stock (w/o the extension) with a 1" pad/spacer = 14.5" - pretty much a standard catch-all LOP. Still thinking about it. The gun has sentimental value and shoots beautifully and I have no interest in "collecting."

I have 7 British guns 4 in BQ1. All are �shooters�. I am tall and these guns had short stocks originally. Here is how I have handled the short stock issue:

2 restocked (orig stocks <13�)
3 ebony extensions (orig stocks +/-14�)
2 walnut extensions (same)
LOP is 15 3/8.

Personally I have no concerns with well made extensions. I prefer ebony to walnut and prefer wood to pads. I am underwater on one restock and am probably at market on the other one. I have acquired the guns to hunt and shoot, so the extensions do not bother me as they allow me to use the guns as intended. I have previously posted a couple pictures of my extensions.

I think Buzz knows what I am talking about.

Indeed I do, Eightbore. We are undoubtedly on the same page. Horrendous extensions on anything but a shooter, but even then, it�s unattractive. But, birds don�t care, and that�s the bottom line, I guess.....???? No, not really!! An unattractive gun is just that....unattractive.

I'm amazed that anyone here would hunt with an ugly gun. Might as well break out the Mossberg 500s and send your hunting doubles down river.

I'll be damned if I will settle for a butt ugly gun. Pun and more intended.

I cannot imagine me buying a gun that has a wood extension............unless it was priced very low. Veeeeery low.

Quality in doubles is becoming more and more important to me.

SRH

Stan,
I agree, but after looking at Mark Lawson's work on his website would have me reconsidering. I think there is a guy here in Michigan that does similar work to gunstocks named Baeckelandt.
Next time a beauty with an extended stock presents itself......
Karl

Mark did a gun stock for me that regularly gets used and after 5 seasons it still looks good.

Mark's work is amazing, no doubt. The only thing that scares me about it is that it has no depth. A bad scratch will get right through the paint and finish and into the wood itself.

SRH

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Case in point, I wouldn�t ever own a Merkel SxS. The actions are ugly, the shape of their stocks & forends is ugly, and the engraving on most of their offerings is flat out terrible. There are plenty of people that think Merkel makes a beautiful SxS gun...my feelings on them doesn�t make them or I wrong or right. Some of my most favorite guns were probably considered ugly by most connoisseurs of double guns, I could give a rats ass what those people thought.
A good friend of mine was shooting a pre-war mid grade Sauer BLE that has 2� extension (poorly matched btw) at some low gun skeet a few days ago....yes the extension is ugly, but the gun fits him, he paid $400 for this gun and he shot a 23 and 24 with that ugly gun, factory tight and tighter chokes too. Looks aren�t everything. When it comes to �shooter� grade, sometimes guys will overlook aesthetics and go with results. I don�t have a problem with that.

LeFusil, why do I feel you are trolling?

In any event, as an owner of a Merkel, I half agree with you. And that's why I'm shopping for another gun.

Trolling? WTF is that. I put a statement, my opinion, on this like everyone else has. How is that trolling?

Ugly?????

In my opinion, yes. The action bolster, the way it is filed, to my eyes is ridiculous. The scalloping on the action is not attractive either. The shape of the forend is too boxy...and the stock panels are too long. Now, just my opinion. If you think it�s beautiful, that�s all that matters, Karl.

I do have an admiration for many other guns, the Merkels I have to admit are an aquired taste.
Karl

Tell me about it, I like Darnes

I've handled a few Darnes, and although they aren't for me there's no denying their serpentine look.
Karl

I am right handed but shoot left handed. Most of the guns I acquire end up being bent or restocked. they usually look better and shoot better afterwards, so I have no trouble justifying the additional expense.

This thread is a late April Fools joke - right?

I hope so.

I purchased my Boss at the Southern a couple of years ago. It was a nice gun but had a short LOP. I decided to send it the Stock Doctor to get an extension added. With the addition of a leather pad and a short well matched extension I now have a gun I can shoot like it was intended to be.
Dennis Smith is a true gentleman and a master stocker. He did a fantastic job and brought a 1928 Boss back to perfection.
I do not de-value my gun.

Mike,
I'd love to see the photos of the stock as an example.
Karl

Did Merkel fit the gun to that trunk case?

I wouldn't reject a gun that had a well done stock extension, but it would have to be very reasonably priced with an eye toward eventual restocking. I've heard figures of something like $800.00 or so for grain painting to cover a stock extension, and share the same concerns as Stan that it is nothing more than a surface treatment. That kind of money would go a long way toward restocking many guns unless you were paying top dollar for upgrade high grade wood and labor.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the better alternative of doing a butt-transplant on a gun that still had a sound head and grip area and good checkering. I don't have any idea what a good stock man charges for that option, but it is something on my list of future projects for a couple guns that have old deteriorated recoil pads and less length of pull than I prefer. There is a very good description of the process in "Shotgun Technicana" by McIntosh and Trevallion.

Keith,
I think it was referred to as a butt transplant. I think $800.00 is a bit steep considering Stan's comment of the effect wearing off.
I think just getting something that is close and adjusting it with an ebony or leather pad of a sensible thickness would make the mose sense to me.
Eightbore,
The case is an aftermarket one from Jeff's Outfitters, their toe under compact one.
Karl

Keith, I think a butt transplant is about a grand. Faux paint is less than $800, I think. I was considering it once and I think the faux I was quoted was about $250, but I could be wrong. A butt transplant is a good alternative to the high cost of a restock, but a restock will increase the value of a nice gun whereas a butt transplant, I would say likely not so much. An honest seller would reveal a butt transplant, I would think. I�ve seen a good one and it�s hard to tell it was done. Hey Karl, your Merkel is a pretty gun. Nothing wrong with a Merkel. They handle very nice in my opinion and the Germans sure know how to make a fine gun. I think LeFusil (Dustin) is all wet with his sentiment on Merkel guns. He�s right on a lot of other stuff, but not the Merkel imho.

Buzz, there�s no right or wrong, it�s my personal opinion regarding Merkels. That was entirely the point.

Hi Dustin.

Thanks Buzz. Not sure exactly what the cost was for faux grain painting, but I thought it was excessive for a surface treatment that could be scratched or flaked off. My own consideration for a true butt transplant would be as a do-it-yourself home gunsmithing project. I already have enough nice Black, English, Claro, French, and Turkish walnut blanks and slabs in my inventory that I am unlikely to use it all in my lifetime.

Karl, a true butt-transplant involves cutting off the butt section of a stock just behind the grip. Only the grip and head is salvaged, assuming those areas are in good condition. The idea is that a large part of the cost of restocking lies in shaping and inletting and checkering that area. Practitioners of this method typically make their cut in line with the checkering so that the glue joint can be hidden within the last checkering groove. The glue joint is reinforced by milling a mortise in front of the new piece of walnut that is being grafted on to the grip area, and a matching mortise is milled into the grip. This can be concealed under the trigger guard tang. A matching tennon is made of a strong piece of plywood. Alternatively, a large diameter hardwood dowel may be used if the holes for the dowel can be bored in correct alignment. The grip and the new piece of walnut for the butt section are then carefully glued and clamped together. The grafted butt is then shaped to your preferred dimensions and as stated earlier, a checkering tool cuts a new line of checkering at the glue joint to help conceal it. As Buzz says, when done well, it is extremely hard to detect, and should be as strong as new wood.

When a one or two inch piece of walnut is spliced on to the rear of a stock to make the L.O.P. longer for a gun that was cut off or too short to begin with, that is simply a butt extension. Some people will cut off a stock to shorten a gun for their kid, and save the cut off piece to glue back on later when he grows up. Since this involves using the original wood, the color and grain match is almost perfect except for the saw kerf loss. But a cross-cut glue joint will always stick out like a sore thumb unless you resort to the faux grain painting.

By the way, I didn't think Dustin's comment concerning Merkels was trolling... just a matter of his own personal tastes in guns. Nothing wrong with that. But I did think this comment whining about killing a coyote with a 10 gauge loaded with #5 shot was trolling on a gun and hunting related forum:

Interesting, as I was offered a nice gun that was shortened by the previous owner. I might have been tempted to purchase had he saved the piece that was removed.
Buzz, Dustin isn't wet at all. As I said, Merkels are definately an aquired taste (taste being subjective). I love my 28,20,and 12 to distraction.
Karl

Karl, no worries....Dustin and I are good buddies. I�ve handled some really nice small bore Merkel guns, but haven�t shot any (I owned a 28 b but traded it before I ever shot it....kind of crazy). They are pretty well balanced, I think, but I don�t have much experience. Maybe, Dustin would like the Merkel if he handled and shot one ? Nevertheless, when we meet up at the Lapeer shoot, maybe you could let me take a couple shots with one of your smallbores? I�m looking forward to that shoot, and meeting you and some of the other guys here. I googled my trip and I-69 takes me right there, only about 5 hours from Indianapolis. Pretty easy Peezy. See you on May 12th!

Buzz,
Last year I used my baby framed Merkel 28 at the shoot. If you like I can bring it for you to shoot, or the custom 20 which is nice also. This year I'm bringing old faithful, my Browning bss-sl 12 bore.
Karl

Goodness Gracious.

I know I said previously that I�d never own one....

Truth be known....I�ve owned several Merkels. Over the years, I�ve owned many Teutonic guns believe it or not. Simsons. Sauers. Kerners. I know exactly how these guns handle. I know exactly how well built they can be. I also know exactly what their short comings are. I usually don�t offer up an opinion unless I�m experienced. I try not to make it a habit of commenting on things I know nothing about. I think Merkel o/u�s are ugly too, but I absolutely love how they feel in my hands and I like shooting them. I can overlook a good prewar German o/u�s aesthetic short comings just because of how much I like how they feel in my hands. Trim, sleek, fast & strong.....butt ugly. I�m ok with that.

Moving on....

The original statement...I would rather have a gun that has been resleeved than one with a stock extension. I was taught the barrels are the gun. With a gentleman's height at the turn of the century much smaller than it is today, modifications would be necessary. I am happy with a wood extension as long as the gun fits.

Put a leather pad over it....no one will know; and use it for what it was meant to do. Shoot