doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Winchester 21

Chief, If nothing else, it's an expensive hobby.
$15.00/rd of Skeet to shoot RST's in a vintage firearm.
$90.00/100 to shoot clays with them.

2500rd/mos is about $550.00 plus range fees for OTC Herter's Low re-coil 1050 fps cartridges. Roughly $1,000.00/mos. Could you reload 10 cases/mos and save some? Sure, but that's all kinds of work at the press.

There aren't many retirees that I run into running that many rounds through anything vintage.

I suppose there might be someone, but then the finishes on the guns wear off as well. They get progressively looser, then things start breaking and binding.

So, from my experience, most internet accounts of use are... ambitious.

I agree, most are. The gun I use(d) isn't vintage, or rare or special, a Ithaca 100. I don't think 10K, (total, not per year) through any gun over a 25 year span is extraordinary, 400/yr isn't a lot of shooting. Kids don't grow up for free either, money well spent! I can't imagine shooting 10K/year! Shoulder/eye problems anyone?

CZ, where you're shooting must be in high cotton. At my club, members shoot skeet for $6, 5-stand for $6, and wobble trap (scrap) for $6. A 100 bird round of sporting is $25 for a member, and only $35 for non-members. This is a 15 station course with all ProMatic machines and has the ability to count your targets and transfer them to a chip card. Also has a 3 second delay for report pairs and singles, if you want to practice alone. In short, a very well equipped shooting facility. They sell 12 ga. target loads for $65/flat. At the government's travel expense rate of $.54/mile, it costs me as much to drive there and back as it does to shoot a 100 bird round, shells included.

$90 per 100? Mercy!

As to the wear on a gun, I have shot 10K rounds a year, more than once, by actual shell and target count. I've never worn out a double. Closest I have come is a used BSS I bought about 12 years ago. Tight when I bought it, but shot loose about a year ago. A .003" piece of aluminum HVAC tape keeps it tight now. It's digested a good many 3" magnum loads, and lots of lighter ones.

I agree that you can't separate the wear from opening/closing from shooting entirely, but it is my opinion that the opening/closing cycles cause more wear than the firing of light loads, say 1 oz. or less in a 12 ga. There is very little metal to metal movement during recoil ............ but lots in opening/closing.

SRH

No Stan. Just working man's clubs, and two state owned clubs.
I used RST's at $10/bx because I said Vintage doubles.
It runs $5.00/rd for skeet, $38.00/100 FOR CLAYS. add 120 RST's or almost 5bx's(shoot twice at a single if needed) and a soda, brings me to $90.00/rd.
You know, at 1 extra dollar per round, it takes 100 rounds of skeet, to generate an extra 100 bucks. Which doesn't go very far when keeping a club running.

I watch the books at my club pretty closely, and with no paid help and $100.00 annual membership fee, we run no large surpluses.

Might want to consider switching from RST to another manufacturer with 16ga or 20ga payload in 12ga shotshell ie 7/8oz to 1oz at 1100fts to 1200fps. Such shells are available form Fiocchi, Winchester, Remington, Herter's at Cabela's,.....Soon Kent of WV with come to rescule with 3/4oz (original 20ga payload) in 2.5" case 1200fps for about $8 per box.
Just because Model 21 isn't good choice for me doesn't mean it isn't high quality well-made gun of high quality components. Hey if you switch to ole' Winchester 21 you can use them Remi Club loads and really save money on the shells! A guy had one of them two trigger ones in 12ga 28" at last gun show in very good shape for $3600. Man, Perazzi charges about $20,000 for something that looks similar. Talking about expensive!
When one thinks a bit and crunches some number that ole' Winchester kinda becomes affordable. I got a little slogan for you boys....Shoot more for less live happier buy old' Model 21! Good?

Jag, (not that you'd know, of course (How's that Kieth? Hah!)) but Win21's are notorious for pulling the forend loop loose shooting a lot.

It starts with a little wiggle in the forend. It ends at a shop in Tejas.

It would not be a bad idea to ask Keith if there was some super binding substance that could easily fix that problem. I mean ca. 1945 Germans glued on some wings on them Volksjagers and some of them actually flew and landed. Yes there were some losses but I bet we got better glues now.

The model 21 as I recall started life in the early 1930's. To date I cannot recall one feature of the 21 which has been "Un-Prejudically" shown to be of superior design to those "Classics" which began life in the 1800's. In fact many of them are of superior design. What the 21 had going for it strength wise was it made use of more modern steels. My personal view-point is the 21 is of inferior design to many of its predecessor & contemporary doubles but made up for it with stronger steels. My first double was a pre WWI J Stevens Arms & Tool Co gun. It had a "Cigar Box" shaped frame with coil mainspring & cocked very much like a 21. It bolted with a wedge shaped bolt as an extension of the top lever in a plain straight rib extension, thus bolted further from the hinge than a 21 which gave it better leverage. It was a low end grade & to my recollection was neither chopper lumped not mono-blocked. It was still tight & on face. It was steel barreled so at the time not knowing any better I did not hesitate to feed it nay off the shelf ammo, which it took in stride. The only feature of the 21 which makes it so "Valuable" is the Name "Winchester". I seriously doubt the name CSMC will ever achieve the status as that "Big Red W".

Miller, I am just a regular guy that likes to shoot.

Repairs are a fact of life with old guns. New ones too.
You gonna choot, you gonna fix.

The only point I even cock an eyebrow over is when people are lost in some sort of observational parallel universe.

I'm sure there are other points, but when I inspect a 21 I look at the forend lug, and when I look at a Flues, I look at the cocking rod. Doesn't mean there can't be hours of fun with them out on the range.

ClapperZapper's claim that a Model 21 can't withstand ten grand a year is a bit ridiculous. Further comments about forend lugs are just as ridiculous since a loose forend lug has absolutely nothing to do with hinge wear or breech looseness. Some of the posters just don't understand gun mechanics. Others have never seen, shot, or owned a Model 21, Winchester or CSMC.