doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lefever Frame Sizes

All my years in Lefevers Ive heard the turms XX frame, Small frame, 16 ga frame, 20 ga frame.
I only collect early guns but I decided to measure frames and see the difference in frame sizes. I was shocked with my outcome. I find the only differences in the size of Syracuse Lefever frames being in the sizes of the breech balls. I don't have a late 20 guage but I measured 7 or 8 16 ga, a 14 ga, bunches of 12 ga, 10 ga and 8 ga guns and the thickness and widch of the frames at the same plus or minus a few thou.

Same with Ithaca NIDs, never measured earlier guns.

I think I have one or two guns with narrower bars. I will check before betting my life on it.

Your findings sort of fit a repair I was made aware of some years ago. A friend had a 20 ga. XX frame gun with no stock. He had a 12 ga. stock, and it almost fit on the 20 ga. gun perfectly.

Did you measure the width only or depth and length as well? It may be that Lefever only had one or at most two different sized receiver blanks to work from. They certainly got the weight done on those marked XX but I am not sure much weight came off the receiver. Most of my Lefevers XX 20's are very light but I think it's a lot to do with very thin struck factory barrels. I have a very high condition 20ds, with untouched barrels, which are as thin as .018-.019. These have never been honed or restruck. They were so thin I measured several others and they all are about .020 to .025 two were a lot less. But those I am sure had been honed out before I got them. Both are retired. Sure makes me not want to hone them to clean up any pits and I refuse to ream the chambers out to 2 3/4. In fact I am real careful to shoot very low pressure loads in them.

Bob, awhile back we had a little discussion on this subject. I compared frame measurements on seven different Lefevers from a 12 ga. G grade with a 16xxx serial number to a 20 ga. DS with a 64xxx serial number. In all there were four 12 ga. guns, two 16 ga. guns, and one 20 ga. gun.

I found fairly significant differences in some parts of the frames when comparing to other frames. I took measurements at six points, and also measured the firing pin spacing, standing breech height, weight and length of the barrels, and overall weight of the guns. Since I took these measurements, I've been wanting to do the same with many more guns, especially some with earlier serial numbered rod cockers, and a few 10 gauge guns, but have not yet found the time to do so. Here are my results from the "Lefever Questions" thread from April of 2017:

Miller, sorry for the delay in responding to your questions, but I've been working a ridiculous number of hours the last few weeks. I too have heard of 12 ga. guns being built on the XX frame, but have never seen one. Yesterday, I finally got the chance to take some measurements to answer your questions. I grabbed my FE 12 gauge SN 48xxx, along with three other 12 gauge Lefevers, and three on the XX frame, a 20 gauge and two 16 gauge guns. The 12 gauge guns were H 27xxx, G 16255 (a two hook gun), and DS 60xxx. The 20 gauge was DS 64xxx, and the 16's were G 25xxx and a delightful straight gripped Damascus barreled GE 48xxx that is only 300 serial numbers apart from my very light 12 ga. FE.

It would be nice if I could attach a spreadsheet with all of my measurements and weights in neat rows and columns. Instead, I'll give you the numbers at various points on the action of the FE, and then give you the dimensions at the same points, in the same order, for the others.

The weight of the 12 ga. FE is 6lb.-3oz. The weight of the barrels is 2lb.-11oz- 28" long. The width of the breech (point A) is 2.271". The width of the bar at the very end of the flat just before the knuckle radius (point B) is 1.286". The width of the action flat was measured right behind where the cocking hook sticks up because the width of the flat seems to taper somewhat on most of the guns measured. On this FE, it (point C) was 1.595" The overall length of the bar from the standing breech to the front of the knuckle was tough to measure with a digital caliper, but was approximately 3.193" (point D). The thickness of the bar at point B (point Bx) is .848". The thickness of the action at point C (point Cx)is .865". The height of the standing breech (point SBH) was measured right across a firing pin and was 1.163". The width of the action just behind the breech balls (point E) was 1.560". The firing pin spacing (FPS)was 1.101".

The numbers for 12 ga. H 27xxx in the same order are: 7lb.-7oz. overall. 3 lb.-11oz. barrels- 28" long. Point A- 2.289". Point B-1.420". Point C- 1.604". Point D- (approx.)3.192". Point Bx- .870". Point Cx- .870". Point SBH- 1.200". Point E- 1.555". and FPS was 1.108".

The numbers for G 16xxx, the two hook gun, were: 7lb.8oz. overall. 3lb.-10oz. barrels- 30" long. Point A- 2.268". Point B- 1.454". Point C 1.609". Point D- (approx.)3.193". Point Bx- .860". Point Cx- .866". Point SBH- 1.136". Point E- 1.550". and FPS was 1.122".

The numbers for 12 ga DS 60xxx were 7lb.12oz. overall. 3lb.-13oz. barrels- 30" long. Point A- 2.359". Point B- 1.320". Point C- 1.602". Point D- (approx.)3.194". Point Bx- .850". Point Cx- .868". Point SBH- 1.213". Point E- 1.575". And FPS was 1.165".

The numbers for the XX frame 20 ga. DS 64xxx were 6lb.-1oz. overall. 2lb.-11oz. barrels- 28" long. Point A- 2.080". Point B- 1.289". Point C- 1.535". Point D- (approx,)3.193". Point Bx- .845". Point Cx- .865". Point SBH- 1.056". Point E- 1.530". And FPS was 1.024".

XX frame 16 ga. G 25xxx was 6lb.-2oz. overall. 2lb.-10oz. barrels 28" long. Point A- 2.075". Point B- 1.253". Point C- 1.537". Point D- (approx.) 3.195". Point Bx- .840". Point Cx- .870". Point SBH- 1.059". Point E- 1,499". And FPS was 1.045".

XX frame 16 ga. GE 48xxx was 6lb.-3oz. overall. 2lb.-9oz. Damascus barrels 28" long. Point A- 2.105". Point B- 1.313". Point C- 1.540". Point D (approx.) 3.192". Point Bx- .848". Point Cx- .868". Point SBH- 1.086". Point E- 1.510". And FPS was 1.025".

Not surprisingly, most of the weight reduction in my 12 ga. FE was in the barrels which were nearly as light as those of the small frame 20 and 16 ga. guns. I was also not surprised to see that the breech width, standing breech height, and firing pin spacing were all smaller for the earlier two hook 12 ga. G grade than for the later 12 ga. guns. I've noticed this before in some earlier guns, and I think thicker barrels at the breech may have been a response to newer smokeless powders.

I guess I wasn't too surprised at the variability in dimensions between guns given that these guns had a lot of hand finishing versus the soul-less CNC cookie-cutter guns made today. My very light FE 12 ga. definitely has a frame that is smaller than the other 12's in most areas of measurement, but not in all areas. I found that strange. And I noted that the FE frame was actually a few thousandths smaller than the small XX frame guns in a couple points, yet it was the second widest at point E directly behind the breech balls. I actually expected more uniformity in this area because I tried a stock from a 12 ga DSE on another 16 ga. XX frame several years ago, and it fit almost perfectly. I probably should have omitted the approximate measurements for the overall length of the action bar since the Fowler Sylvac digital verniers I used weren't the best tool for the job. But it served to show that the hook (or compensating ball socket) to breech length is very close in all of the guns I measured. I hope to find the time to measure several others including that very light I grade I mentioned earlier, which is my second lightest 12 gauge Lefever at about 6lb.-4 or 5oz., as I recall. I'd like to measure a few 10 gauge guns too.

Here's a link to the entire thread:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=478357&page=1

I took my width and thickness measurement's of the frame where the side plates end and made sure I was not hitting the check pin. As for later guns had narrow front parts of the frame because of the way the guns cocked. I was just shocked that my 8 ga had the same size of a frame that my 16s do.

I suppose weighing the frames might tell some interesting comparisons .

I took measurements on mine some time back but don't think I recorded them. I did post them here to the forum at that time, but don't recall how long ago. I have essentially three sizes of bars. I don't recall if I actually measured the rear of the frame where the stock attaches or not. An XX frame 16 has a slightly narrower bar than non XX frames, don't recall about depth. I have 12 gauge guns from 6 1/2 lb to 8 lbs & they all have the same size bars, firing pin spacing's & breech ball sizes vary of course.

An early 10 gauge 32" 10 lb side pivot lever gun has a larger frame bar than any of the 12's

My xx 16 weighs 6 3/4 lbs. It has thick heavy barrels with matching breech balls. Firing pin spacing is a bit wider than most 16's.

Could we establish measuring points and develop a chart of dimensions ? I would be happy to contribute, but am not qualified to make the chart. Maybe Mr. Noble would be able to do it.

This is a great idea, but probably much easier said than done. I recall a thread where the single measurement being taken was distance between centers of firing pins. Some folks were eye-balling it with rulers and tape measures while others were getting a more precise center to center distance by measuring from the edge of one firing pin hole to the same edge of the other with digital verniers. We saw an example of problems with measuring a couple weeks ago when old colonel bought a Model 21 Winchester, and the seller was off on the barrel length by 3/8". Anybody who has bought used barrels from e-bay or Gunbroker knows that getting accurate measurements for breech width, etc., is like pulling teeth from a pit bull.

I like your idea of weighing actions, but that is something that can't be done without removing the butt stock. Even the early serial number lists that were published in the LACA Newsletter weren't all that informative because of how incomplete many of the descriptions were for guns that were submitted.

I'm pretty well convinced that there are indeed significant differences in Lefever frame sizes just based upon my very limited measurements and comparisons. I need to get around to checking several other guns to confirm this absolutely, but I'd be very shocked if the frame of my heaviest 10 ga. Lefever wasn't heavier and larger dimensionally than my lightest XX frame small bore guns.