doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Strange Proof marks on a Saint-Etienne 16 ga.

I was looking at this 16 ga. SxS Fusil de Chasse on Naturabuy.fr... M. Serre has been discussed before and it looks like he was a well known gun maker in Saint Etienne in the 1930's. It looks like it's been rechambered from 65mm to 70 mm and reproofed. The Saint-etienne crossed palm fronds are recognizable. But does anyone know what is that second mark?

On the tubes or on the flats? Interlaced MS would be for M. Serre I assume. Do you refer to the monogram / trademark low on the flats?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Both...MS on the barrels must be M. Serre.thanks - I feel pretty dumb. Oh well., guess that's one down.. What about the mark on the flats?

The one low on the flats closely resembles the Lebeau Courally trademark of two interlaced Ls(side by side w/ one reversed) & a C surmounted by a crown. M. Serre must have had a similar touchmark but w/ a MS surmounted by a crown? Is that the best image?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

You don't see a lot of French guns with reproof marks, but that's one. The R under a crown doesn't show up all that well, but it's there. Plus the 70 in addition to the 65.

Many thanks Mr. Brown for confirming that. I was going to inquire but since I didn't recall ever seeing one, thought it to be a dumb question.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, that's the best photo of the mark on the barrel flats available; somehow most sellers on Naturabuy can't take a decent photo. But while we're whiling away the dog days of non-hunting season, here are two more Saint Etienne guns rechamsbered from 65 to 70:






And here is an 1890's Manufrance 16 gauge chambered for 7.5 cm again making me wish there were some publication out there on French shotgun shells from that era:
https://www.naturabuy.fr/cal-16-75-remis...em-3143203.html

Those first two don't show reproof marks even though the chambers have been lengthened. At least not that I can see.

I've seen Brit guns that have been reproofed without showing the reproof mark (also crown over R). But it most cases with those guns, it's somewhat academic. They've changed proofmarks often enough that if the originals listed only chamber length and shot charge while the new ones refer to tons or bars, then reproof is obvious due to the 2nd set of marks.

And while we're at it...this is from a St Etienne Damascus barreled hammer gun 16 gauge...no photos of barrels flats, etc. but what powder is this proofed for? Can't make it out. PVI? PM?



And this one. Manufrance Damascus barrels - chambered in mm 75 - 14 gauge (it's marked 17.4 - a little larger than 16 gauge - but the sellers states that 14 ga shells fit the chamber - he has 30 of them.) Has to be between 1885 and 1889. But what is the "F" proof mark?



And final question: 16 gauge Saint-Etienne top lever hammer gun with poor photos...but it's proofed for what? PS is obvious...but again PM? PI? PVI?

The Crown over F is either a tubemaker's mark or a mechanic's quality control stamp. I can't recall the Poudre M but I have seen it prior. Maybe it was a variant @
"Laboratoire Central des Poudres et Salp�tres" in Paris, France??

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thought it might be listed here?

https://www.scribd.com/document/160823699/Memorial-des-poudres-et-salpetres-tome-6-1893-France

Interesting M/71 is listed:

M/71 Normal - Pulver. Ancienne poudre noire r�glementaire de l'infanterie allenmadne(plus de 4000 grains au gramme)

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I'd say that mark is almost certainly a poorly stamped PM. That was one of the 5 varieties of smokeless accepted for proof loads prior to 1914. After that, only PT.

Raimey, allenmadne? Maybe "allemagne"? German black powder.

Mr. Brown, yes a typo or actually an error in the manner in which I extracted it. allemande....

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

This from PassionlaChase.fr:

alors le poin�on F couronn� qui correspond � l'�preuve ordinaire � la poudre noire des fusils finis appara�t bien le 30 juillet 1897.

Ok, the F with crown stamp corresponds to ordinary black powder proof for long guns finished after 30 July 1897.

Les poin�ons PJ couronn� (�preuve � la poudre J des fusils finis) et PS couronn� (�preuve � la poudre S des fusils finis) apparaissent bien en 1896. En revanche, le poin�on PM couronn� (�preuve � la poudre M des fusils finis) apparait en 1898.

the PJ crowned stamp (proof for J powder in finished long guns) and PS crowned (proof for S powder in finished long guns) seems to be 1896. On the other hand the stamp PM crowned (proof for M powder in finished long guns) arrived in 1898.

Et tu as raison, le poin�on PT couronn� (�preuve � la poudre T des fusils finis) n'apparait qu'en 1900. Les poin�ons simples S, J et M ne concernent pas le banc d'�preuve de St Etienne.

And you are right, the PT crowned stamp (proof for T powder in fiinished long guns) did not appear until 1900. The simple stamps S,J,M were not part of the St. Etienne proof house.

On semble deviner sur ce fusil le poin�on d'�preuve des canons�instaur� d'apr�s les d�cisions des 20 ao�t et 6 septembre 1879 pour les armes de fabrication locale (armoiries de St-Etienne suivies de ST ETIENNE), ce qui est tout � fait normal sur une arme sortie avant 1900 et � poudre noire. Le 8 novembre 1901 apparait le m�me poin�on sur lequel sont rajout�es les lettres NA entre les armoiries et ST ETIENNE.

And this from a previous post by Wildcattle (betail enlisse):

The J and S powders were early and released in the early 1890s.



"Powder J" was released on 7/1/1892.
Another post claims that J Powder arrived 30 March 1896.



"Poudre M" was released in 1897, - (from this example I think Larry's right about it those other two being poor stamps)



"Poudre T" on 12/29/1899.

From Wirnsberger, French proof powders were J, S, M, R and T.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Correct . . . prior to 1914. After that, only T.