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Jul 28th, 2025
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Joined: May 2011
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 55 |
How can one determine if a trade label is really authentic? I see a lot of labels with just lettering (simple fonts) and no ornamentation from a manufacturer and then I see another from the same mfg with lions and cups and other ornamentation with the same wording but exotic fonts, some of which I can't source or identify. Most of the unadorned labels I see are 'copies' on nice paper and some on leather, supposedly identical to the real mccoy. I could easily do the same in Adobe Illustrator and probably make it more attractive. If these guys are sitting in the back room banging out fakes on a computer software then why pay when you could do it yourself on Word?
A current example, and check out the others this seller has, just lettering and lines. Galazan has many just like them.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Lefever-Arms-Co-Black-Leather-Trade-Label-Name-Tag-for-Case-Lid/282504886502?_trkparms=pageci%3Ac1de60d4-1029-11e8-8d3a-74dbd18033d7%7Cparentrq%3A8b75ec231610a866b15723e6fff8004c%7Ciid%3A1&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236
Last edited by Tamid; 02/12/18 02:38 PM.
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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I have to think it would take some experience and expertise to fake trade labels. I don't think I could do it, at least not on the level Galazon sells. Be nice if authenticity or not was required in advertising...Geo
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Joined: Jan 2013
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2013
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Over the years I have found that copy trade labels are easier to spot if you know a couple of things and you use a X10 Loupe. First off laser printers where not in lets say the public hands until the end of the 1970s also Ink Jet or Bubble jet may be a little later. Though you folks may have had these items a little earlier than us brits. With a X10 Loupe you need to look at a thin line in the printing and you will be able to see small ink dots on the outsides of the main printed line, this is the give away of any printer whose method of printing is to spray ink.
A Laser printed label is a little different, don't look at the print look at the unprinted parts of the paper for the tell tail signs of small printed dots because no laser printer has a perfectly clean drum and toner is a bit of a loose cannon and can find its way on to the paper.
I have also come across photographically produced labels and on this side of the pond every one I have come across is printed on photographic paper that is more like card than paper.
A lot of the original vintage trade labels where printed on high quality paper containing a lot of cotton so thin crisp and still looks fine after many years.
The print method is easy to detect because a lot of trade labels where produced for Gun Makers by Artisan printers in small batches, on "Movable Type" printers using real printers inks with clean printed lines and type.
The one type of label that is extremely hard to detect genuine from reproduction is the hot block leather or paper versions because the system has been in use for easily a hundred years. And unless you can do an analysis of the print foil making sure it is metal of the correct age, rather than the plastic foils that have crept in to use in recent times.
I say this about the hot block printers because I have one myself and it is now extremely simple to produce a hot printing block photographically, also you can still obtain low karat gold hot blocking foils and Moroccan type Leather is still available.
I am not saying this is the definitive information to be able to make the decision reproduction or not because there are a lot of exceptions though it is an enough of a help for you to start to look for things that are not quite right.
The only lessons in my life I truly did learn from where the ones I paid for!
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
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Damascus,
Good information and requires me to be a bit more specific on my original post. The 'authenticity' I was referring to was whether the 'seller's labels' were indeed an authentic copy of an original label or something made up. Almost all authentic originals and copies of authentic labels I have seen have an embossment, an ornamentation of cups, lions, medals, etc along with the lettering and lines. Many of what I suspect to be fakes are made up labels with only lines and lettering that being somewhat familiar with Photoshop and Illustrator I can easily replicate or produce another that is similar but has more flourishments and with which I might dupe the unknowing. ( I am not suggesting Galazan or the seller on Ebay are trying to dupe people to think these maybe copies of original labels. Just saying that the simplicity I see in some labels is easily reproduceable.)
Last edited by Tamid; 02/12/18 04:47 PM.
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 55
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 55 |
I have to think it would take some experience and expertise to fake trade labels. I don't think I could do it, at least not on the level Galazon sells. Be nice if authenticity or not was required in advertising...Geo Geo, If I had a number of high grade photographs of several different labels I could come up with a new one that would make you think it was authentic. Anyone skilled in photoshop and illustrator and perhaps with a photographic background shouldn't have too much trouble copy/pasting and making up an altogether new label. My problem is trying to fix copies of labels that are damaged, parts missing, aged, and poorly photographed. I'm working on a few now that are taking considerable more time than I suspected and I suspect have a few members here scratching their heads wondering if I'm doing anything at all.
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,503 Likes: 293
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,503 Likes: 293 |
There are not any original Lefever labels to copy, end of story. That's what you asked about, right?
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,161 Likes: 253
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,161 Likes: 253 |
Now I understand now Tamid the best reference for the correct gun manufacturers label including changes over their productive years. I have found is Peter Dyson's internet site, if he stocks it I have found they are always of the correct design for the time. The three photographs I have added are for the label of a Purdey case I renovated, I wanted the 314 1/2 Oxford street address. The first was an original 35mm colour film photograph I took of a genuine case label, using film gives a far sharper initial image. The second image was converting the colour image to black and white then digitally remove the blemishes using a simple photograph editor. The third is a black and white film photograph whose negative was used to produce a bromide paper print to the correct label size but this is intentionally over exposed. Doing this burns out the light parts of the photograph leaving just the print. The photograph is then scanned and the print digitally enhanced so you have a clean perfect black and white label to print onto the correct paper. I do hope it makes sense because it is relatively simple but needing a real film camera, but it may be doable with a digital camera though I have never managed to make it work.   
The only lessons in my life I truly did learn from where the ones I paid for!
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 55
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 55 |
Damascus,
Nice work. I don't have any paper processing equipment or darkroom any more having gone all digital. I do have lots of film and paper stock in my deep freeze that I should think of selling.
You could achieve the same thing by using masks in Photoshop so a camera is not necessary. A very good scanner is a must however.
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478 Likes: 16
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478 Likes: 16 |
Over the years I have found that copy trade labels are easier to spot if you know a couple of things and you use a X10 Loupe. First off laser printers where not in lets say the public hands until the end of the 1970s also Ink Jet or Bubble jet may be a little later. Though you folks may have had these items a little earlier than us brits. With a X10 Loupe you need to look at a thin line in the printing and you will be able to see small ink dots on the outsides of the main printed line, this is the give away of any printer whose method of printing is to spray ink.
A Laser printed label is a little different, don't look at the print look at the unprinted parts of the paper for the tell tail signs of small printed dots because no laser printer has a perfectly clean drum and toner is a bit of a loose cannon and can find its way on to the paper.
I have also come across photographically produced labels and on this side of the pond every one I have come across is printed on photographic paper that is more like card than paper.
A lot of the original vintage trade labels where printed on high quality paper containing a lot of cotton so thin crisp and still looks fine after many years.
The print method is easy to detect because a lot of trade labels where produced for Gun Makers by Artisan printers in small batches, on "Movable Type" printers using real printers inks with clean printed lines and type.
The one type of label that is extremely hard to detect genuine from reproduction is the hot block leather or paper versions because the system has been in use for easily a hundred years. And unless you can do an analysis of the print foil making sure it is metal of the correct age, rather than the plastic foils that have crept in to use in recent times.
I say this about the hot block printers because I have one myself and it is now extremely simple to produce a hot printing block photographically, also you can still obtain low karat gold hot blocking foils and Moroccan type Leather is still available.
I am not saying this is the definitive information to be able to make the decision reproduction or not because there are a lot of exceptions though it is an enough of a help for you to start to look for things that are not quite right. I am reasonably sure that the best quality paper trade labels were produced using direct impressions from hand cut steel plate engravings. These are easy to identify with the above mentioned 10X loupe. As a young graphic artist / label designer I recall this 'high end' printing method used for stationery, labels, invitations, etc. Nothing says "QUALITY" quite as well. The label image posted above by Damascus was, no doubt, originally produced using this method. Engraver / illustrators like Bob Swartley use this method to create stunning prints. Others use direct stone Lithography or intaglio to create limited run prints.
Last edited by Chukarman; 02/15/18 02:07 PM.
C Man
Life is short
Quit your job.
Turn off the TV.
Go outside and play.
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 55
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 55 |
Engraver / illustrators like Bob Swartley use this method to create stunning prints. Others use direct stone Lithography or intaglio to create limited run prints.
Yes a way to produce museum quality prints, however most of us would not want to put that fine of quality into our cases and secondly we could not afford it or would not want to afford it.
Last edited by Tamid; 02/15/18 06:26 PM.
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
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