doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Shotshell primer brisance

I wasn't the one who coined that term for shotgun primers. It has been used to refer to the "hotness" or "coldness" of primers for as long as I can remember. And, just to address this further, here is a email I received today from Ballistic Products, who does operate a ballistics lab.

"Hi Stan,

Thank you for your interest in Ballistic Products and your inquiry. In most instances, Cheddite primers are comparable to Winchester, CCI, and Nobel Sport primers. However, how each primer interacts with a particular powder can vary greatly among types. I have attached an article with some additional information on primer brisance and the effect on pressure. There is also some helpful information at this link as well: https://shotgunreport.com/2016/02/03/shifting-primer-strength/.

I hope this information helps. If you have any questions or would like to place an order please e-mail me back or call 1-888-273-5623 and thanks again.

Sincerely, Eric"


I highlighted the word in red, but note that it was he who wrote it. Feel free to correct him, and the rest of the world who understands what is meant when the term "primer brisance" is used. This layman will muddle on in ignorance.

SRH

Edited on 15 February

I've been around shotgun loading for 40 years and never heard anyone use the word brisance. You might tell the man at BP that he's using the wrong word, he's probably just reusing the word you used in your question to him.

BTW I worked at Hercules.

I deleted a prior post, as it did not truly convey my feelings, Dogfox.

If I was harsh, I truly apologize. I felt you were making more a point of pointing out my usage of an incorrect term than you were trying to help answer my original question. I have never seen any other term used for the burn, or explosion, rate of primers, and how they affect chamber pressures of identical (other than the primer itself) loads. Have you?

I do not think I replied in "vengeance". I am put off that you would go to the effort to correct me in my ignorance, but not offer the correct term for what was being discussed. I'd still like to know what that term is. Tom Roster, and many other ballistics writers and labs, over the years, have used the term "brisance". You have a grand opportunity to educate us all in the correct terminology, and I for one, would appreciate it.

I'm not defending anything, I truly want to learn. I assume that the people at Ballistic Products know more about how different primers interact with loads than I do, or I wouldn't have emailed them and asked for info. I would not assume that a ballistics lab and reloading components company would use an incorrect term just because I might have. I would hope they would use the correct term, if there is one, and be gracious in their correction.

SRH

OK, now let me share my two cents.
It is hard to rate primers finally in their interaction.
Different powders have different burning needs, and some shotshell
primers may have more bursting power (brisance) but less of a swirl in the hot embers emission.
So a primer that is rated hotter with one type of powder may have to be rated colder with another type of powder.
My 2 cents.
Mike

P.S.
Brisance is the shattering capability of a high explosive, determined mainly by its detonation pressure. The term can be traced from the French verb "briser" (to break or shatter) ultimately derived from the Celtic word "brissim" (to break).

Remember, priming compound is an explosive and not a propellant.

Thanks, Mike. BP was helpful in their reply, and alluded to what you are saying, if I understand both of you correctly.

I will most likely send 5 to Tom for testing if I decide to substitute the Cheddite primers. I have done so in the past with other loads where I substituted Cheddites for others, but this is a different powder, hull and wad combination.

Best, SRH

dogfox,
i have been reading this thread with interest.
I did think your post ,with the Attempt & layman bit might have come across as a little Holier than Thou.
just saying...no harm meant
cheers
franc

Stan I apologize I came across harshly which I didn't intend. I thought I was helping by stating primer mixtures are formulated for temperature and duration and volume of hot gas. Various primaries are used by the different primer makers. Some mixtures contain otherwise inert compounds to help ignite the powder. It would be tough even for explosives chemists to sum and compare all those considerations against other primers and best we can do is to use the powder company charts for a certain load and one primer against another. Brisance isn't the right word and I never heard another word that correlates all I wrote about.

Why would you want to know the " brisance " of a shotgun shell primer? Just about everyone understands the Fed 209A and CCI 209M are " hot " primers and all the rest are pretty much the same, or, "mild". I've been subbing in the Cheddite primers for Win for years with no ill effects. And, out of the 30 or so different shotguns the only one to pierce a Cheddite primer is my Parker 12ga hammer gun, the right barrel. I would think it has more to do with the shape of the firing pin than anything else. I thank Dogfox for answering a question I had - didn't know what brisance was till now.

Why would you want to know the " brisance " of a shotgun shell primer? Just about everyone understands the Fed 209A and CCI 209M are " hot " primers and all the rest are pretty much the same, or, "mild".

Paul that is not true in all cases. As explained different powders react differently with different primers.
In the loads Stan is looking for, of which I don't have any for Cheddites, but these loads are right from Hodgdon's site and it shows that the Federal 209A's are not giving more fps or PSI.
I have found the same in 12 ga. using Titewad powder.


12.6 Lil�Gun Winchester 209 Remington SP410 1200 11,600
12.9 Lil�Gun Federal 209A Remington SP410 1200 10,900
12.9 Lil�Gun Federal 209A WAA41* 1200 11,200
12.9 Lil�Gun Winchester 209 WAA41* 1200 11,500
These loads are using Remington STS in 2 1/2" length with 1/2 oz. shot.

Thank you, Dogfox. It's all good, no worries. I could have been a bit less knee-jerk myself. I do appreciate your comments about how primers work, and I also did learn that brisance is not the exact term to describe what I need to know. Maybe ........... what I need to know can only be determined by testing the exact load(s) I'm interested in at Tom's.

The reason I am trying to be so careful is that the loads I will be substituting Cheddites in are already generating around 13,000 psi with other primer makes. It is a 3/4 oz. .410 load. I know .410s run at higher pressures, but I don't think I want to get much higher than 13K.

Don't think too badly of me if I use the term "brisance" again in conversation about primers. We'll both know that it isn't correct, but it will me save lots of typing explaining myself every time, until we figure out a better term to use. I'll try to remember to use it in "--------"s, to qualify it.

All my best, SRH