doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Educate Me - H.A. Linder, Charles Daly SxS's

Hi all, say, could someone tell me the models/grades that H.A. Linder made for the Charles Daly line.

Looking for the models from best grade to bottom end.

Thanks so much!

Greg

I was trying to determine the same thing last year as I began looking for a external hammer pigeon gun. What I came up with is, from the top..... Diamond Regent, Diamond, Empire and Superior.

If that is not accurate I would appreciate correction, too.

SRH

Let me see if I can help. Unfortunately, it is not an simple explanation as the (Prussian) Charles Daly SxS line-up evolved and morphed considerably over a period of more than 60 years.

1. Schoverling, Daly, and Gales (SD&G) - as well as earlier and later variations of that company - sold Daly guns by model number. The higher the model number, the more expensive the gun.

2. Some of these models were grouped under a quality designation (i.e., a "grade"). But here is where it can get confusing; depending on the year, there may have been one diamond quality model or 5 different diamond quality models. In 1890, for example, there was only one hammerless diamond quality model, the model 200. Fifteen years later, you could buy diamond quality models 225, 255, 275, 325, and 375.

3. The "empire" and "superior" quality designations ("grades") were only introduced at the very tail end of the Prussian Daly production. I just checked my catalogs and there is no mention of the "superior" and "empire terms pre-1928. The terms do show up in a circa-1930 catalog and also the Blue Book of Gun Values which is why they are so often referenced. And since Heinrich Lindner ceased his shops production circa-1916, there can be no such animal as a Lindner produced "empire grade" gun.

4. In terms of Lindner (Not Linder) Dalys, it is important to understand that not all Prussian Charles Daly guns were made by Heinrich Lindner, and not all Heinrich Linder sourced guns were sold by Daly (SD&G). While Lindner produced the bulk of Daly guns for 30+ years, other high quality makers also sourced Daly guns. And Lindner produced either finished guns or partially finished guns to several other American retailers/makers including William Schaefer & Sons, EC Schmidt, James Donn, and Thomas Golcher. He also retailed a few under his own name in Europe.

5. The above just scratches at the surface of the (often confusing and still not 100% definitive) history of Prussian Daly guns. The German Gun Collector Association put together an almanac of information on Charles Daly guns titled, "Prussian Daly Imports" that has the best collection of Daly information. It is available on their website.

Hopefully this helps more than it adds to the confusion,

Ken

Ken, I'm scratching my head to recall correctly, but back when I owned a Lindner Daly Featherweight 12ga, I posted here for some help. It was a later gun, made not long before WWI IIRC. Someone who responded here identified it as a 185 grade. And I believe the number corresponded with the price of the gun in this country.

Hi Larry,

For long stretches within the Prussian Daly production, model numbers often (but certainly not always) corresponded with the retail price of the gun.

In 1914, For example, your model 185 did in fact retail for $185 (in 12, 20, and 28 gauge). The 10 gauge model 185 was a little more, $200.

Ken

Quick side-note on the "Featherweight" designation on your gun: Assuming it was marked as a "featherweight" on the rib, and not just a very lightweight gun, this would add to this list of known featherweight guns produced when they no longer existed as an option in the catalog. I've recorded a couple made long after SD&G advertised them in their catalog.

This is a lightweight, 20 gauge Lindner Daly, grade 165:

To add a little more to this thread and hopefully shed some light on why the "when was it produced" question is so important to figuring out what Daly model you have and where it stacked-up in the line-up, I've added details of the hammerless SXSs offered by SD&G just 16 years apart. The first is a summary of the Daly models offered in 1892, and the second is a summary of the Dalys offered in 1908.

(Note this is a summary of Daly hammerless SXSs only. Daly drilling and SBTs, however, followed similar methodology. Apologies for the less-than-easy-to-read format below.)

SD&G Catalog (1892) - 302 Broadway, NY
Model Retail Price Details
120 $110 A&D action, fine damascus, extension rib, auto safety, hand matted rib, 10, 12, 16, 20 bore
120 FW $125 Same as 120, except 5.5- 6 lbs, 12 gauge "featherweight"
150 $175 Same as 120 with ejectors
200 $175 "Diamond Quality", Bernard, Turkish, or Chine damascus, extensively engraved, turkish walnut
250 $275 "Diamond Quality", Same as 200 with ejectors


SD&G Catalog (1908) - 302 & 304 Broadway, NY
Model Retail Price Details
118 $125 Krupp fluid steel barrels, dolls head ext., fine line engraving, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28 gauge
135 $140 12, 16, 20 gauge $150 - 10 gauge, $200 - 8 gauge Same as 118 w/ cross bolt, 8, 10, 12, 16, 20 gauge
185 $185 12, 16, 20 gauge $200 - 10 gauge Krupp barrels, ejectors, sideclips, cross bolt, additional engraving, 10, 12, 16, 20 gauge
225 $225 Diamond Quality, Krupp Special or Witten exclesior steel barrels, extractors, extensive engraving, 12 gauge only, 7 - 8 lbs
275 $275 Diamond Quality, 12, 16, 20 gauge $300 - 10 gauge Same as 225 w/ ejectors
325 $325 Diamond Quality, Krupp Special or Witten Excelsior steel barrels, elaborate engraving w/ gold, ejectors, 12, 16, or 20 gauge,
375 $375 Diamond Quality, same as 325 w/ heavier relief engraving, 12, 16, or 20 gauge
500 $500 Regent Diamond Quality, Krupp or Witten barrels, all aspects to order, gold crown in action engraving


You can see the actual model numbers are completely different between the two catalogs. You can also see in the later catalog how many diamond quality models there are (as well as a regent diamond quality gun.)

Hi Greg; I recommend you talk to Amarillo Mike and Joe Wood about these guns. They know them like the back of their hands. Very excellent guns from what I�ve seen!!

Chukarman; That�s a beautiful gun. Is it a restock? I�m guessing maybe it is, but beautiful wood! Certainly doesn�t detract from the gun if a replacement.

That is a gun I bought - a rescue - good Damascus barrels but the rest was toast. Careful restoration on the metal. The original stock was terrible - below the metal in many spots. That is a piece of Turkish that was whittled out by Gary Goudy. He is a master. I love this 5.5lb. 20 gauge Lindner Daly!!

I have a Lindner Daly Diamond Feather Weight in 12 gauge. With steel barrels.

Compared to Ken and others here I don't know much about the Lindner Dalys, except I know I really like them.

Ken--It was marked "featherweight". 26" barrels. I know it was under 6 pounds, but I'd have to dig through my records to see just how far under. I seem to recall around 5 3/4. Lightest 12ga sxs I've ever owned, except a 2" French 12.

I�ve seen Mike�s featherweight Lindner and talk about very high quality. He can kill quail with it too. I�m starting to think I might �need� one too??

Hi Chukarman:

Your gun is my dream come true! Congrats upon having great taste.

I would like to know how much money does it take to produce a gun like yours. I am not getting personal, but would like to place a price on how much good work costs. Many people are ignorant of the cost of building a beautiful gun. I have done it in the past and have an idea of what it costs. Top notch work is not inexpensive! If I appear too bold, kindly send me a PN or ignore my post.

All of the best,

Franchi

How can I post pics and if not I can e-mail the person who can post. It's a early Daly with some engraving on it.

Regards, Pat

I'd gladly receive them but I'm still hitched to photobucket. I guess it would be a good opportunity to switch image hosting horses.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Franchi -- Then you know that good work is not cheap or fast.

The men who did the restoration did first class work. Pete Mazur did the gunsmithing (cleaning, polishing internals and re-joining) and metal finishing. Sam Welch filled a couple of pits and re-cut the engraving (per original), Steve Heilmann provided the Turkish blank, and my old friend Gary Goudy made the stock. I am thrilled with the result. I would guess it would cost north of $10K today. Well worth it, I think.

PS: I discussed this gun with Ken Georgi and I think we agreed it was either a grade 165 or 185. I forget which. When Gary Goudy (who sees a LOT of best guns) was working on it, he called me to remark on the very high quality of the gun - the fit and interior finish is really remarkable. With 28" barrels and 2-3/4" chambers it is a terrific dove gun.

Here are a few photos of my 1912 Daly 16ga Model 275 Featherweight. It has 28" barrels and weighs 5# 7oz. It has a straight stock with nicely figured wood.










I also own this other 1912 Daly Model 185 16ga that has a serial number serial number three before the above gun. 28" barrels weighing 5# 12oz. It is my every day bird shooter.

Wow - nice guns, dukxdog.

Thanks for sharing.

OWD

Dukxdog, any chance of seeing your proof marks and serial number ? Some parts look like a later gun.

That's the best looking pointer I have ever seen engraved on a Lindner gun.

The tap, tap, tap is more than likely the effort of Heimbeck. Schoverling is long gone; Daly expired some 10 years prior and in 2 short years ALL will fall apart w/ the passing of H.A. Lindner's son in fierce fighting w/ the Brits. With the Witten tube steel, this may be the pinnacle of perfection of Daly's offerings never to be replicated again.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Two very nice guns, Dukxdog.

Dukxdog those are simply beautiful! Very impressive. I would love to get a 16ga like your 275. Lucky guy!

Best,

Greg

The 16ga up there is outstanding, but even knockabout sample from Zella-Mehlis or Suhl can be quite nice..... Schilling of Thuringen...
While we may not know which of about dozen of Schillings put together or sold this the overall quality and condition is pretty good. Note sling swivels have nice finish and polish. Ok, never mind I have just located VCS monogram on the butt plate. It came from factory of Albert, Moritz, and Walter Schilling.

Yeah, V.C. Schilling was the component source and/or machine parts source. Interesting mark on the underside of the right tube just forward of the flats. This example was onhand in Schilling's shop in early 1893 and is devoid of the A&D Body Action APUN. So either the patent protection period was out or it was destined for a country where there wasn't a filed protection period for the APUN.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

At first I had thought the intertwined letters were Ls but upon closer inspection it is interlaced Cs noting sourcing Charles Cl�ment � Liege.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Dukxdog, how did you establish that the more highly engraved gun you picture is from 1912 ?

Bobby, you've got me looking at Dalys

Question for those Lindner - Daly aficionados: Does every "true" Crown over Crossed Sidearms or Crown over HAL offering only have one screw visible on the floorplate?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Ramiey,
I'm not quite sure why you put quotation marks around "real" unless you mean using the crown mark to denote Lindner made guns as opposed to the government using it for it's own purposes.

I have a modest accumulation of Prussian Daly's plus a file of photo's of Daly's that have interested me. After looking at both, all of the Lindner guns marked with with a "crown over crossed sidearms" have only one screw visible on the floorplate. This includes both hammerguns and hammerless.

I don't remember ever having seen the "Crown over HAL". Not saying there aren't any, I just haven't come across one.
I have seen just "HAL" or just "Crossed Sidearms" but never "Crown over HAL" If one is out there, however, I'd bet it was made in 1892.

All of of the post 1892 guns built on the A&D action have only one screw on the floorplate....even an odd ball like my Diamond Quality Hammergun with a Jones underlever and Witten steel barrels has one screw in the floorplate.
Jon

I have a ten gauge with a crown over crossed pistols. I just dated it using info on this site at 1891 or 1892.

Many thanks Jon S. My findings match yours. I meant to differentiate between those A & D Body Action Charles Daly offerings, and purely Lindner also, from those that do not wear the the Quality Control Mark of Lindner. Also, I'd like to not include those by Golcher, Jakob, etc. for the time being.

If you look at the following thread where an A&D Body Action is pretty much summed up by 2 visual screws in the floorplate:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...6270#Post456270

"Re: the 2 screws on the belly: It's an easy way to do a quick sort when checking a large gun rack of SXS such as at auctions etc.
No screw is WR droplock, 1 screw is sidelock, 2 screws is the remainder."

So, why is only 1 visible on the Lindner offerings? Is it an attempt to separate it from all the other typical A&D Body Action offerings or is it a design criteria that sets it apart?

The Val. Chr. Schilling offering also has a single visible floorplate screw.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Serial number, HAL & Crossed pistols marks on barrels and talking with Ken Georgi. Both of my Daly's were made in 1912. The serial numbers are three apart.

I'm curious as to your doubts.

Builder,
Is your 10 ga's serial number 50 numbers either side of 3900?
Just curious,
Jon

It is a low number, Jon S at 9xx.

Dukxdog, your more engraved gun was interesting to me for a couple of reasons. The engraving style [scroll] is quite typical of Daly guns found from the 20s. The dog on the bottom is found on guns from the 20s, too. Those 20s guns are date marked. I�m away from my pics, so I can�t compare guns for a few days, but I�ll look more closely when I get to them.

"So, why is only 1 visible on the Lindner offerings? Is it an attempt to separate it from all the other typical A&D Body Action offerings or is it a design criteria that sets it apart?"

So are the triggerplate and bottom plate one unit?

Is there a screw inside the action securing the bottom plate?

They must have secured it another way.

BTW: That Schilling appears to be built the same way.

OWD

Yeah & I noticed that many of the Suhl & Zella - Mehlis A&D Body Actions have the single screw visible. I'll take one apart & see.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

My futile PB attempt:






Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Are those intercepting sears?

Too bad -- I would love to see the photos.

Email me & I'll send them to you.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

If you use Google Chrome, I believe you can obtain a quick fix here:
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detai...pbifiaedg?hl=en

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

For the record -- my Lindner Daly info:

On the Barrel flats from breech forward:

Left Barrel:

Small unidentifiable stamp mark just ahead for the ejectors

19 (20) -- the 20 is in a circle

U under a crown

Eagle beside a W under a crown

Eagle beside an S under a crown

On the barrel: Crossed pistols under HAL and an unidentifiable stamp mark about 1/2" above the HAL mark

Right Barrel:

19 (20)

U under a crown

Eagle beside a W under a crown

Eagle beside an S under a crown

604 (serial number)

On the barrel: Crossed pistols under HAL and an unidentifiable stamp mark about 1/2" above the HAL mark

Rib marked Charles Daly Fine Damascus Barrels. Action flats marked PRUSSIA and 604 with an eagle and a U under a crown.

Can anyone say when this gun may have been made? Guessing about 1895 to 1900?

Um, I would hazard a guess of 1893-1894, but then again what's a couple years. There should be a set of initials on either tube close to the lower rib.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Yes, overhanging scears w/ lower intercepting scears I believe. Almost all A&D Body Action Lindner Dalys were fitted with those. It is possible that some may not have the upper ones but still have the top screw?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Country of Origin Stamp "Prussia" should aide in the dating effort. I believe first the Country of Origin Stamp was Saxony; then Thuringia; and finally "Prussia" before they found their identity.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

From the 2nd sequence numbers in my mind, I'm going to guess your 20 bore Lindner Daly Nr. 604 wears the JW mechanic tubeset knitter's initials.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I should have included in the pics on the other thread of my 10g. the fact that it says PRUSSIA on the action flats.