doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Roll crimping help!

I am roll crimping new Cheddite hulls that I trimmed to 2.5". I use a roll crimping die that I believe I got from BPI (90& sure of that) on my drill press with a wooden clamp that I built to hold the shell. I turn the die at 530 rpm, although using 800+ rpm didn't seem to make and difference. I'm not applying much pressure, though the hull seems full, it does not seem over full at all. (1 oz of 7.5s, sg16 wad).

Any suggestions about making more consistent (and prettier) crimps? I can't believe these are going to be very reusable.

You need lubricant on your crimper. I�ve used the same beeswax/olive oil patch lube I use for blackpowder shooting.

No kidding? Heck, that's too easy!

Thanks!

Yes on a little lubricant, also use your lightly oiled cloth against the crimping tool to both clean and to heat the tool up by way of friction. Keep the crimping tool warm to hot


I have discovered by trial and error which tools work with which plastic hulls better. I have BP, Lyman, Precision, antique brand x, and GEAP heads.

Also look at your trimmed length in relation to the load. Sometimes a little more or less plastic works better

Of the currently available roll crimp heads GAEP and Precision are probably the best. Also, be sure your roll crimp head is very warm or even hot to the touch - I used a "screwed up" cartridge to warm the crimp head when I loaded a batch of hulls and it really helped get good crimps on 24 gauge hulls.

who is GAEP?

The crimp head is warm even hot. Hot enough that I think the plastic is being pulled and stretched around the case mouth. Nearly melted. The lube helped, but I'm not getting presentation grade crimps yet.

Because I had to cut these down from 2.75", they are not skived on the ends. That may have something to do with it too.

I'll keep at it and experiment with lube.

Thanks everyone.

Brent

There's no better crimp made than with a vintage hand cranked crimper. Right now your drill press is spinning too high an RPM combined with too much downward pressure. Finding the balance is key. A hand cranked crimper offers the Goldilocks amount of pressure and friction. GAEP is an Italian product. Charles makes excellent crimping tools; the best in the business. Gil

From the looks of your uncrimped hulls they are too long. You should only have about 1/8-3/16" max from the shot card to top of hull, and 1/8" is better.
The better crimper for the drill press or hand drill is one having two indents in the crimper but as stated the hand crimper is faster and does a great job. I have never used any lubricant, the heat generated by the roll crimper is what does the crimping, and being unskived does not seem to be an issue.

You dont need much hull sticking up to get a good roll crimp. I used to roll crimp my 2-1/2� hulls when they were getting too worn out for fold crimping. I woild cut them down another 1/8� (so to 2-1/8�) and then roll them with the same load. Then toss them after firing them.

I have not ised lubricant before. I had good lick with bringing the crimper down to the plastic and allowing just a second of spinning on it to warm it up and then plunge down the crimp. Has always worked well.

Having to much material to have to fold over can cause all sorts of issues which i think may be your primary issue.

I'm quite sure I have enough plastic, maybe too much but I tried adjusting for that and had no luck.

I am, however, convinced that the BPI roller I'm using is probably at least a large part of the culprit. I have a 16 gauge antique roller but I broke the lever handle on it that pushes the cartridge into the crimper. I may be able to salvage the crimper and use it in the drill press. I know it makes a better crimp before it broke some years ago.

Better yet, there is a gun show this weekend, hunting seasons are largely closed, so now I have a good reason to go and a mission while I'm wading through the black guns. I need a 16 gauge hand capper too.

Thanks one and all. I'll get a good crimp on these yet.

BTW, could it be that Cheddite hulls are worse than average plastic for roll crimping? Maybe that is part of the problem. I have some old AAs that I can try too.

I have the same BPI roll crimpers in 12 and 16 that I chuck in my cheapee drill press. My initial results were just like yours but once I applied a little lube and went easy with the press my crimps were perfect. I�ve used Cheddite, Fiocchi, paper, etc and all crimped nicely after I figured out the nuances of roll crimping.

eeb, so you are saying it's the Indian and not the arrow? Can't be.. I've got another 50 loads waiting for me tonight. I'll keep experimenting.

GAEP is an Italian reloading company. Buying from them is a pain, but their quality is excellent http://www.gaep.net

Sent you a PM

I use a exacto blade in a wood dowel taped to fit the I.D. of the hull with a bit of clearance. A wood screw is in the bottom to set the length. For the best roll crimps it is necessary for the hulls to be the same length. If the wad column and shot do not come to the same height I add a few pellets to bring them all level. About 3/6'th inch of hull over the overshot card works well. Setting the stop on the drill press insures that you do not mash the crimp. I do not skive, lube or heat the hull or crimper. I use a Precision crimper and a BPI hull vice for this task. Do not make this too difficult because it really is not. Just uniformity along the way. Uneven lengths make the crimps look frazzled or twisted. The set stop makes them all look the same.

I found an 8x1 metric bolt will fit my old, antique crimping tool, so tonight I'll try using it in the drill press. Can't be any worse than the crimping tool I was using. This one has 3 shaping "bumps" in the crimper as opposed to just the one in BPI's version. Those "bumps" are shaped much differently as well, plus it is brass or bronze and that may help as well.

I'll find out tonight.

Brent

After you shoot the roll crimped loads the mouths of the hulls will look awful. You might have to retrim them so don't start out with fresh hulls trimmed too short. You might get longer hull life using the compromised Harten crimp which falls somewhere in appearance between a roll crimp and a star crimp but requires a press. Gil

GLS, I've shot roll crimped bp loads a fair bit and I've been able to reuse most of the shells - 90% anyway. I have to reshape the case mouth but it's not been hard. I think, if I can get decent crimps again, I can do that with these too. But as cheap as primed Cheddites are on sale, it may not be worthwhile.

A spindle depth adjustment on a drill press works nicely for roll crimping. Every shell is crimped to the same depth.

I use Precision, Lyman, and GAEP crimp heads. No BPI for me. Tried one and no good results.

As others commented.....IMHO you have too much plastic above the overshot card.

Eric,
I cut the hulls very precisely on my table saw. That part is very uniform. There is a little variation in the shot column but I try to keep it minimal. I haven't used a stop with the drill press, but I have experimented with different degrees of plunging while searching for a correct length that I would then set the stop for. So far, no luck. But maybe tonight with the new crimping die, I'll get it right. I used to make pretty nice black powder loads in plastic AA hulls and a few Cheddites. But that was with the hand tool.

The weather was pretty miserable late yesterday and last night so this gave me something to play with. I think I'll have more success tonight with the new (old) crimper. I may also try a little more lead to fill that space a bit better. Looking at the load tables, this should be okay.

I have empty hulls in 10, 12 and 16 roll crimped and use them when changing gauges. I raise or lower the table and bring the crimper down on to the hull mouth and set my stop. Then they ae uniform. When changing from 2.5 to 2.75 I just adjust the table height. I pour the powder and seat my first hard nitro card and check for uniform height, insert my lubed fiber filler and a over powder card or another nitro card depending on hull length and again check for uniformity. If they are not all the about the same I use a bit more hand pressure to compress the column a bit more. Pour in the shot and again check. If necessary I add or subtract a little shot to gain uniformity. It only takes a few pellets. Once everything is the same I apply the roll crimp. They look great and perform better. Both smokeless and Black powder. Cheddite hulls work great for this and with I mostly use roll crimped shells for black powder for 1 shot and toss. Do not like fooling around with reforming the hull mouths and with 3 dram loads the hulls start to get pretty fried. More money than brains I guess. Federal papers also can be roll crimped but they do not look as nice, even when trimmed to 2.5 inches.

The Remingtons are 12 gauge cut to 2 1/2" low pressure used in my 1892 W.W. Greener. Leaving an I/8" of hull and 5 turns it is finished.


The jig I made myself and will use it for 16 gauge roll crimping. These are brand new 2 1/2" Cheddites. The roll crimper is a BP and does a fairly decent job but I also have a hand crank and like it better and is faster.

Those are just too pretty to shoot! I'm impressed, do say the least. How you get that BPI crimper to do that I may never figure out. Nice work!

Brent, applying light pressure generates the heat to make the crimp roll. As to the speed, I can't remember but what ever I used it for before is what it stayed at.
Again from the looks of your hulls they are too long. If you have them all cut to that length just add a two more over shot cards to bring the height higher. You are trying to roll too much plastic.

I think you are right about the too much plastic. The loads are 1 oz loads but 1 1/8 oz with the same powder and wad would be very safe according to Lyman's tables. I'll try it tonight.

Seriously, those shells look perfect. Absolutely perfect.

Is anyone using high brass shells? I use the old hand crank and when using high brass they always stick in the holder. I though about sanding it out a bit but haven't tried that.

Tamid the problem could be that the length of the brass is slightly oversize causing it to stick.

Brent these are 10 gauge 2 7/8". Naturally the one on the left is 6 crimp and has 1 1/4 oz. of shot. The other is as you can see 1 1/8 oz. shot. To properly crimp this load, 2-16 ga. .125 fibre wads were inserted in the shot cup to give the crimp you see. This was also done with a hand crimper.


I forgot how to resize the pictures in Imgur. Can't use Photobucket any more.

"How many cranks does it take to roll crimp a shell with a vintage hand cranked crimper?"

Answer: One Old Crank. Gil

I love beautiful ammo. But when it comes to shotguns, I'd settle for "good enough" and I'm not there yet.

This is what rifle ammo should look like. I can make SOME ammo look good. Sadly, everything seen in this photo was stolen - really.

Most handload/reloaders (that I know) would agree that .410 is one of the most difficult rounds to "make pretty." Here's what my old French RTO does with .25" above the osc. Gil

Brent great looking loads. I only reload shotgun from .410-10 gauge.

Gill, you are right .410 is the most difficult, luckily the Mec 600 Jr. has a holder at the second station so that it does not pick the shell up and then drop it.
Reloading these takes time and I stick with either #8, 8 1/2's or 9's. I also tap the drop tube every time to make sure it hasn't bridged.
I have been 6 crimping them and most come out decent. I haven't tried the 3 inchers yet. I find the AAHS hulls are nice to reload. I have some STS but haven't tried them yet.

These are my 2.5" ITX loads for waterfowl. BPI roll crimper, I bought a 12 and 16 at the same time and they sent a little tub of anti seize compound for bolts to lube them with, now I just put a squirt of oil on the drill press base and dip my finger in it every once in a while. I do use junk shells to warm the roll crimper..

When I run the crimper down over the shell I stop when it hits the plastic and hold it there with slight pressure and there is a moment when you can feel the plastic start to give and then just smoothly run the crimper down.



A little spring loaded shell holder I made, I have leather spacer for it to do 16ga.

12 and 16 ga Fiocchio, Cheddite and Fed paper all done with BGI (note: NOT a BPI) reversible pin vintage closers. They are simply the best closers I've ever used. No electricity, no vise no screwed up hulls.

Oh, forgot to mention, no messy lube.

Those are nice, I have a hand roller but the plastic hulls are very tight going into it.

I warm a cold roll crimper with a blast of hot air from a hand held hair drier. Never had to use any lube. Gil

+1 for the convenience and neat results of original hand-cranked roll turnover tools. Some are better than others; but a little lube, light pressure, and about 1/4" of case mouth works pretty well in just about everything I have - from 8g to 28g.

Well things didn't work out the way I expected. My alleged 16 gauge antique crimper is really a 12 in disguise and it turns the lip outwards, not inwards. Where my antique 16 went, I can't guess, but now I have something to search for at the gun show.

So, back to the BPI crimper in the press. Results are far from perfect like the beauties posted today by others, but not too bad. First, for sure I had too much plastic. I put 3 card wads on top of the case and even that was probably not enough. Less plastic is more betterer - for sure. The other thing I discovered is that the speed of the plunge matters. At first I went quite slow to warm up the plastic as much as possible and I held it there for a bit too. The plastic sure got hot and it more or less tore and smeared itself around the lip of the case. But plunging fast and NOT holding in down works much better. In the picture below, if it orients as it should, the first attempts tonight are on the left. And except for the very last case in the bottom right (which was the first one i did), I went faster and things got better, on average, moving across to the right.



I will get better, but now I'm at least presentable (well sort of).

Brent

Looking better Brent! place your cards under the shot to bring up the level. Too much on top will blow your patterns. also cards on top of the fiber filler will prevent shot from embedding into the fiber filler. Only 1 over shot card is necessary. They will all work. When you bring the tool down and when you feel it bottom out raise the tool to keep the crimp from getting too hot and messing up the crimp.

Yes, I'll get the lead level up. I had these already filled and I wanted to simply test the "less plastic" hypothesis.