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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Originally Posted By: Rocketman


Before anyone has a heart attack, let me explain. Patterns sweep out a trumpet shaped volume. Choke effect controls how quickly the pattern spreads radially; a plot of forward velocity vs sideways (radial) velocity rotated makes the trumpet shape. So, if you look at two patterns from widely differing chokes and shot at the distances where the patterns have equal diameter, you will find the patterns are indistinguishable.



Don, here's what Brister says about patterns in his chapter on "Choosing Chokes and Loads":

"The improved cylinder pattern, which exposes a higher percentage of its pellets to atmospheric resistance at the muzzle, spreads faster and in more direct ratio to distance. Gough Thomas explains this by suggesting that the full choke stays tight, then spreads out suddenly, something like the bell of a trumpet, while improved cylinder spreads out as a rather constant cone. My wife, after a particularly tiring day replacing test targets and tabulating data, suggested: 'Just tell them improved cylinder goes to hell gradually; full choke all at once.'"

Larry, with all due respect to Brister, I think he missed on some science. If fired in a vacuum, patterns would sweep out a cone as opposed to a trumpet when fired in air. The reason for the trumpet shape is that the pellets loose forward velocity (high velocity) much faster than sideways velocity (low velocity).

I don't think there's any disagreement to the more open chokes spreading faster. That's what they're designed to do. But there appears to be some disagreement on the trumpet shape issue--full having a narrow tube that rather suddenly transitions to a wide mouth, while IC has a wider tube with a more gradual transition to its mouth. Are you (and Jones) suggesting that the profile of IC and full patterns are actually the same in terms of how quickly they transition from the trumpet's tube to its mouth?

I do not accept that any part of the pattern spread changes "suddenly." Ballistics and aerodynamics don't work that way. The full choke is blooming over a longer distance/time than is the IC. Therefore, bell of the trumpet is foreshortened relative to the tube. The IC trumpet will remain proportional to the full at distance, assuming their pellets have similar rates of slowing.

DDA


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Don, I can't find photos in Brister's book to support my point, but I think Brister shot enough targets to have detected a difference in how full performs (in terms of how rapidly it opens) compared to IC (or chokes more open than that). Here's a quote from his book:

"The full choke's reign of superiority is considerably shorter in useful yards than IC's . . . By 55 yards, with ordinary hunting loads, the full choke has become less efficient than the IC as 40 . . . So what we have here is one choke that is quite deadly for a distance of about 18 yards (from 20 to about 38 with most hunting loads in a 12 gauge) and another that shines for 10 yards or so with the same ordinary load."

This is from a man who was more than capable of using a full choke at long range. So it's not as if he didn't understand full's advantages, for those who shoot well enough to benefit from them.

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Here you go Stan
http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=441252&page=9

And we can start at the beginning...for deja vu...all over again wink

More comments by the usual suspects
https://bbs.shootingsportsman.com/archive/index.php/t-3054.html

From the Hogwarts School of Hyperbolic Pseudo-science
http://www.wadwizard.com/howitworks.htm

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Rocketman -

I believe you are quite wrong in how choke effect works. The shot column is a mass of discrete particles not a fluid. Those particles WILL be acted upon by an outside force individually as well as collectively..


Dr.WtS
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Robert Hedrick's theory of shotgun choke is mentioned on the Briley site, but I can't find any original articles
http://www.briley.com/c-456-understanding-chokes.aspx

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Will attempt to decipher the non-deep thinkin' U. of Mo. version of this PhD thesis "An Experimental and Theoretical Investigation of Shot Cloud Ballistics"
http://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/1382490/1/396689.pdf

Here's the background

Experiments by Lowry [16] have shown that for the first metre of flight the shot column of pellets behaves like a single semi-fluid object. The drag force of air resistance and interaction between pellets causes a gradual separation of pellets after the shot cup has fallen away from the load. At some point the pellets have separated sufficiently apart that they are travelling in free air and their only interaction is with air resistance. The shot cloud length is defined as the distance between the first and last pellets in flight and the pattern gives an overview of the pellet distribution across the width of the shot cloud. Generally, at ranges close to the muzzle a more constricted choke will produce a longer shot cloud which patterns tighter.
Shadowgraphs produced by Lowry [16] show the effects of a full choke, where the front pellets in a shot cloud separate away leaving turbulent wakes. He explained that the pellet behind in the wake experience less resistance, due to slip stream effects of the leading pellets, and disperse less rapidly compared to a cylinder choked shot cloud. With the greater dispersion from a cylinder choke the pellets spend a shorter period in a protected atmosphere. Therefore they achieve free flight quicker and become subjected to the full force of air resistance.
Lowry E.D., "A Waterfowl Lethality Model", Western Washington University, M.Sc Thesis, 1981.

p. 45 For spheres in line (180 degrees to flow) with one another the trailing edge sphere can be seen to experiences a very marked decrease in drag until a separation of 3.5 diameters. Unlike the abreast case, the in-line trailing edge sphere will be affected more by the leading edge wake downstream. The leading edge sphere does not seem to be affected too much by the presence of a trailing edge sphere. At close separation the abreast forces are large which could separate the spheres, and when the spheres are inline of one another the reduction in drag means that the trailing edge sphere would catch the leading edge sphere up and affect its performance.

p. 46 The main interest in this work is to explain how shot clouds develop over time and space by studying the external ballistics of shotguns which use spherical pellets. If the pellets emerged from the muzzle of the gun in a constant order and shape, the interactive forces and downrange performance of the shot cloud could perhaps be modelled by theory.
Unfortunately in shotguns there are many variations, for instance the diameter, shape, and surface roughness of the pellets, which alter the drag coefficient of a sphere. Another major influence on the spread of the pellets in a shot cloud is the choke and shot cup behaviour. No satisfactory theory yet exists to predict the downrange behavior of shot clouds…

p.47 The main conclusion (of Journee’ [1]) was that the pellets in a shot cloud have various trajectories and are subject to random paths. Another experiment carried out by Journee’ showed the effect of random trajectories of pellets by colour coding different layers of the pellets in the cartridge and using high speed photography and pattern plates. From this it could be seen that the different coloured pellets moved around in the shot cloud with no constant order. Jounee’ did show that in the final pattern the pellets which were at the rear of the cartridge seemed on average more dispersed than those from the middle and front.
Jouree’ Le General, "Tir des Fusils de Chasse", (ed. Gauthier-Villars et Cie.)

p. 48 Lowry’s experiments [2]
Lowry E.D., "Aerodynamic Performance of Lead and Iron Shotshell Loads", Olin Corporation, Winchester Division, Feb. 1970.

p. 50 Some pellets in the shot cloud were observed to have a lower drag than the undamaged leading edge pellets, this is thought to be caused by slip stream (Lee [11]) showed that pellets behind one another experience a reduction in drag) where the leading edge pellets are subject to a greater deceleration than the pellets in the centre of the cloud. As a result the pellets in the middle of the shot cloud caught up with the front pellet, since they experience less air resistance. The work also showed that with an increase in pellet deformation in the shot cloud there was a greater initial spread.
Lee K.C., "Aerodynamic Interaction Between Two Spheres of Reynolds Numbers around 104", Aeronautical Quarterly, pp. 371-385. Nov. 1978.

p. 51 Oberfell and Thompson’s experiments [38] recognized that the patterns seem to follow a Gaussian distribution.
Oberfell G. and Thompson C., "The Mysteries of Shotgun Patterns",
Oklahoma State University Press, Stillwater, 1960.

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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Don, I can't find photos in Brister's book to support my point, but I think Brister shot enough targets to have detected a difference in how full performs (in terms of how rapidly it opens) compared to IC (or chokes more open than that). Here's a quote from his book:

"The full choke's reign of superiority is considerably shorter in useful yards than IC's . . . By 55 yards, with ordinary hunting loads, the full choke has become less efficient than the IC as 40 . . . So what we have here is one choke that is quite deadly for a distance of about 18 yards (from 20 to about 38 with most hunting loads in a 12 gauge) and another that shines for 10 yards or so with the same ordinary load."

Larry, my point is that patterns behave in an orderly way without sudden changes in diameter and always with a Rayleigh distribution (nicely approximated by a normal distribution). The swept volume is a trumpet, instead of a cone, because the pellets loose forward velocity faster than they loose sideways velocity. Choke effect delays pattern bloom and, over the envelope of useful choke values, increases shotgun effective range by some 50% to 100%, depending on point of view.

DDA


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Originally Posted By: Wonko the Sane
Rocketman -

I believe you are quite wrong in how choke effect works. The shot column is a mass of discrete particles not a fluid.

All fluids are made up of discrete particles - frequently atoms or molecules. The test is will the subject material support shear force. For example, how much shear force will a free standing column of water support? Obviously zero because water is unable stand free. So, how much shear force will a free standing column of shot support? Maybe zero of mighty close to zero. Single pellets are non-fludic. But multiple pellets start acting fluidic. Note that you "pour" shot into the hopper of your reloader and the shot "flows."

Those particles WILL be acted upon by an outside force individually as well as collectively..

Yes, they will. Individually they will act as a solid but collectively they are fluidic.

DDA

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Thanks, Drew.

Lowery noted semi-fludic behavior (Charles, are you reading this?). The noted longer shot cloud is due to acceleration of the shot during passage in the choke constriction and reduction in internal pressure needed to achieve acceleration.

I believe the Rayleigh/normal distribution, coupled with choke effect and pellet ballistics, can be used to make a reasonable model. If statistically valid data is taken at one (reasonable) range, performance across the useful range envelope can be predicted.

With all the grad student (free) labor available to them, it will always be a mystery to me that O&T failed to develop the statistical side of patterning. By hand, it would have been a lot of work. But then, all those grad students should have equaled one low level computer.

DDA

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Chapter 3 “Shot Cloud Phenomena”
Using averaged flight time data for the leading and trailing edges of the shot cloud the longitudinal distribution of pellets is examined to ascertain the effects of altering the launch conditions (such as the internal ballistics of the barrel) and pellet properties.
The lateral positions of the pellets are normalized about the pattern centre and the standard deviation of their x and y pellet co-ordinates are obtained. This gives a measure of the pellet dispersion and is used to examine the relationship between the lateral distribution of pellets and the internal ballistics of the barrel. A more in-depth investigation is then undertaken to determine the true nature of the lateral distribution of the pellets. It is then possible to examine the appropriateness of the traditional approximation (pellet count within a 30" circle at 40 yards) that the average lateral pellet density distribution is a radial Gaussian. To conclude the analysis on the average lateral distribution of pellets, the Poisson process is shown to be an appropriate approximation for describing the hit probability distribution within small areas of the pattern.

p. 98 It was found that the typical percentage variation in the number of pellets was 1 % for mass produced cartridges. This variation in the number of pellets along with the variation in pellet mass, which is controlled by the pellet diameter, affects the load weight of the cartridge and was seen to vary by 1%.
Powder variation for commercial lead cartridges was 0.7%; steel 0.9%.
There is a percentage variation of 2.65% in the diameter and a visible variation in the shape of the lead pellets.
p. 99-100 Pellet deformation of #4 lead, steel (very little), zinc & bismuth (fractured) pictured.

p. 102 The effect of choke on the deformation of the fired pellet was studied. With the exception of steel pellets, it was found that the greater the constriction, the worse their shape became.

The variation in the wads had a great effect on the patterns because if the wad does not release the pellets consistently then the initial spread is altered, and therefore so is the final pattern. It has been observed that the wads do not open in the same way and fall away to different parts of the test range. They have been seen to travel with the shot for a long period of time (seen in the shot cloud profile and by the skyscreens), spin off at strange trajectories (visually), possibly spilling the pellets, or fall away quickly leaving the pellets to travel downrange.

150 different 10 cartridge batches of loads were tested

p. 110 For choke constriction greater than .030” leading edge shot column velocity at the muzzle increased only 2%.

p. 113 The leading edge velocities are given for several different material loads and it can be seen that altering the choke has an effect on the downrange ballistics of the shot cloud. Pellets in a shot cloud produced by the tighter choke spend less time subject to the full force of the air resistance and achieve a 5% greater velocity downrange.

p. 115 The longitudinal distribution of the shot cloud at the measurement ranges 20-50m is controlled more by the variation in aerodynamic performance of the pellets rather than the initial spread produced by the choke.
The shot cloud length behaviour, for any pellet material, at ranges between 20-50m has indicated that it has no relationship with the initial launch condition. However, a trend has been observed between different loads of pellet materials with the same diameter and load weight. The shot cloud lengths are given for a selection of 32g
loads containing either lead, steel, bismuth, or zinc #5 shot shows in general that the steel load produces the shortest length over the measurement range, whereas lead loads are of similar length at 20m but produce a much longer shot cloud at
50m.
From the characteristics of the lead profiles, the pellets are shown to slowly expand in the longitudinal direction with a few impacts breaking away at the trailing edge of the main section at a range above 35m. This associated stringing out effect may be explained by the variation in the in-flight pellet shapes. For steel loads, the shot cloud profiles, are generally more compact over the measurement ranges, but with their greater volume of pellets in flight, the lengths at 20m for the same pellet diameters and load, are seen to be longer than those for lead. However, with their associated smaller variation in steel pellet shape, and therefore in drag, the diffusion rate is less in the longitudinal direction and results in the shortest shot cloud length at 50m.
The conclusions from investigating the effects of choke on the longitudinal distribution of pellets in a shot cloud are that the in-flight effects are dominant at the measurement range of 20-50m.

p. 122 The longitudinal distribution of pellets in a shot cloud is best described by a Rayleigh distribution and the effect of choke on it at the measurement range 20-50m is minimal.

p. 123 Effect of choke (.000” - .050”) on lateral pattern spread at 40 yds.

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