doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help Needed: Acier Mannesman Special Hammer 20 SxS

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Hello - I joined this forum long ago, but have only lurked.

Last weekend, I found a graceful 20ga SxS hammer gun that puzzles me somewhat.

The top of the barrel rib is marked: ACIER MANNESMAN SPECIAL (Mannesmann ?)

* Was this gun made by someone named Mannesmann ?

* Where was the gun made (or proofed)?

* Could the barrels be Damascus/twist, even though I can find no pattern, and AFAIK "acier" is French for steel ?

* What was the year of manufacture ?



It is a petite round bottom action with back action locks on the straight grip stock, to what appears to be a thin Pachmayr rubber buttpad.

The bottom of the barrels and the action water table has what looks like a Belgian proof mark - a vertical oval with a crown on top - but inside the oval is stamped "M" over "C M" instead of the normal "E" over "L G".

One barrel bottom is marked "20", but had no chamber length designation, and the same barrel is stamped "C.L.A." inside a pointed oval, under the chamber.

The other barrel is marked "CHOKE" under the chamber, but the only other numbers (besides the gun's SN) is a "6" on one barrel & a "3" on the other, both several inches ahead of the chamber (but covered by the forend wood).

The barrel's under rib is stamped "C" between the barrel lumps and the forend tenon.

Here's some pics, with which may help with a better ID.













The top rib is marked: ACIER MANNESMAN SPECIAL





The proofmarks are lightly & partially stamped, but here they are:

This is the breech end of the barrels, with my drawing of a few of the "stampings"




Only the right barrel has a single proof mark (and the word "choke"); the left barrel only has "C.L.A." stamped near the breech.




The right bbl is marked with the gauge (no chamber length) and the numeral 4"; the left barrel is marked with what looks like "pt" (?), and the numeral "6"; the under rib is stamped with a letter "C" (I have carefully measured both chamber lengths @ 2-3/4")





The action has the same "M" over "C M" within a crowned oval prookmark, one on each side near the hinge pin, and a "Z" on each side near the standing breech:




I hope you can make heads or tails from them - and, Thanks !


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Looking for ya now but wow I love it! Great find and you can really cock those hammers with a swift one hand motion the way they are made

Acier Mannesman Special I would assume means Mannesman made special steel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannesmann

It is a typical early Belgian with not flats formed on the barrels and concave action flats. You will notice that there is no radius between the breech face and action "flats". Presumably the action was milled vertically thus forming that sharp corner.

Almost all similar Belgians I saw were black powder proofed.

Thank you !

At least, it looks like the top rib marking (ACIER MANNESMAN SPECIAL) was advertising the barrel steel.

The chambers measured out @ 2-3/4" long, so I hope I can use standard low brass commercial shells in it.

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Low Brass has nothing to do with low pressure! Low brass shells often generate higher chamber pressures than high brass loads because these so-called promotional or Wally World loads will use a smaller charge of faster burning powder which generates higher chamber pressures. You can handload to keep pressures below 7500 psi or you can buy commercial low pressure ammo from RST or other sources. Also, there is nothing on your barrel markings to suggest that your gun was originally built with 70 m/m or 2 3/4" chambers. So until you get better info to the contrary, it would be wise to have your barrel wall thickness evaluated by a good double gunsmith who is familiar with vintage doubles.

There may be a Acier Mannesman, but I'm leaning toward it noting a Mannesman process or processes that make a tube.

Laminage des tubes m�talliques sans soudure par le proc�d� Mannesmann. - Rolling tubes by the Mannesman process.

http://www.vallourec.com/FR/group/ABOUTUS/HISTORY/Pages/default.aspx

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for your input, Keith.

My chamber measurement is accurate @ 2-3/4", and the chambers appear to be original/unaltered.

I already knew about pressures, etc, and I was simply expressing my hope that I could use ammo I had on hand for my other 20ga's (a Stevens 311 & an Ithaca M-37 Deerslayer).

I have some 2-1/2" low-pressure RST's on order as we speak - but on my cardiologist's orders, no long gun shooting for at least another 90 days (I recently underwent heart bypass surgery for 5 blockages), which puts this year's hunting season beyond the pale for me.

I haven't had much luck in determining the maker or the date (year) of manufacture, though - but still have high hopes for finding out the same.


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Alarm bells ringing here.

If one is advertising the steel maker or process used in one's wares, it would be most proper to spell the name correctly. To do otherwise rather defeats the intent.

The trigger guard is already turning purple from the over temp hot salt bath.

Anyone believe this gun started life all blue like that?

I'm unable to locate that 'proof mark'.

There is no way to know or even guess at the chambers being original.

The more I look at it, the more I find myself suffering from an eye irritation.

Personally, I wouldn't shoot it with ANY load.

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