doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help Needed: Acier Mannesman Special Hammer 20 SxS

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Hello - I joined this forum long ago, but have only lurked.

Last weekend, I found a graceful 20ga SxS hammer gun that puzzles me somewhat.

The top of the barrel rib is marked: ACIER MANNESMAN SPECIAL (Mannesmann ?)

* Was this gun made by someone named Mannesmann ?

* Where was the gun made (or proofed)?

* Could the barrels be Damascus/twist, even though I can find no pattern, and AFAIK "acier" is French for steel ?

* What was the year of manufacture ?



It is a petite round bottom action with back action locks on the straight grip stock, to what appears to be a thin Pachmayr rubber buttpad.

The bottom of the barrels and the action water table has what looks like a Belgian proof mark - a vertical oval with a crown on top - but inside the oval is stamped "M" over "C M" instead of the normal "E" over "L G".

One barrel bottom is marked "20", but had no chamber length designation, and the same barrel is stamped "C.L.A." inside a pointed oval, under the chamber.

The other barrel is marked "CHOKE" under the chamber, but the only other numbers (besides the gun's SN) is a "6" on one barrel & a "3" on the other, both several inches ahead of the chamber (but covered by the forend wood).

The barrel's under rib is stamped "C" between the barrel lumps and the forend tenon.

Here's some pics, with which may help with a better ID.













The top rib is marked: ACIER MANNESMAN SPECIAL





The proofmarks are lightly & partially stamped, but here they are:

This is the breech end of the barrels, with my drawing of a few of the "stampings"




Only the right barrel has a single proof mark (and the word "choke"); the left barrel only has "C.L.A." stamped near the breech.




The right bbl is marked with the gauge (no chamber length) and the numeral 4"; the left barrel is marked with what looks like "pt" (?), and the numeral "6"; the under rib is stamped with a letter "C" (I have carefully measured both chamber lengths @ 2-3/4")





The action has the same "M" over "C M" within a crowned oval prookmark, one on each side near the hinge pin, and a "Z" on each side near the standing breech:




I hope you can make heads or tails from them - and, Thanks !


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Looking for ya now but wow I love it! Great find and you can really cock those hammers with a swift one hand motion the way they are made

Acier Mannesman Special I would assume means Mannesman made special steel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannesmann

It is a typical early Belgian with not flats formed on the barrels and concave action flats. You will notice that there is no radius between the breech face and action "flats". Presumably the action was milled vertically thus forming that sharp corner.

Almost all similar Belgians I saw were black powder proofed.

Thank you !

At least, it looks like the top rib marking (ACIER MANNESMAN SPECIAL) was advertising the barrel steel.

The chambers measured out @ 2-3/4" long, so I hope I can use standard low brass commercial shells in it.

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Low Brass has nothing to do with low pressure! Low brass shells often generate higher chamber pressures than high brass loads because these so-called promotional or Wally World loads will use a smaller charge of faster burning powder which generates higher chamber pressures. You can handload to keep pressures below 7500 psi or you can buy commercial low pressure ammo from RST or other sources. Also, there is nothing on your barrel markings to suggest that your gun was originally built with 70 m/m or 2 3/4" chambers. So until you get better info to the contrary, it would be wise to have your barrel wall thickness evaluated by a good double gunsmith who is familiar with vintage doubles.

There may be a Acier Mannesman, but I'm leaning toward it noting a Mannesman process or processes that make a tube.

Laminage des tubes m�talliques sans soudure par le proc�d� Mannesmann. - Rolling tubes by the Mannesman process.

http://www.vallourec.com/FR/group/ABOUTUS/HISTORY/Pages/default.aspx

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for your input, Keith.

My chamber measurement is accurate @ 2-3/4", and the chambers appear to be original/unaltered.

I already knew about pressures, etc, and I was simply expressing my hope that I could use ammo I had on hand for my other 20ga's (a Stevens 311 & an Ithaca M-37 Deerslayer).

I have some 2-1/2" low-pressure RST's on order as we speak - but on my cardiologist's orders, no long gun shooting for at least another 90 days (I recently underwent heart bypass surgery for 5 blockages), which puts this year's hunting season beyond the pale for me.

I haven't had much luck in determining the maker or the date (year) of manufacture, though - but still have high hopes for finding out the same.


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Alarm bells ringing here.

If one is advertising the steel maker or process used in one's wares, it would be most proper to spell the name correctly. To do otherwise rather defeats the intent.

The trigger guard is already turning purple from the over temp hot salt bath.

Anyone believe this gun started life all blue like that?

I'm unable to locate that 'proof mark'.

There is no way to know or even guess at the chambers being original.

The more I look at it, the more I find myself suffering from an eye irritation.

Personally, I wouldn't shoot it with ANY load.

delete

"Rolling tubes by the Mannesman process."

I'd suggest approaching this gun with extreme caution. If the barrels are seam welded rolled tubes (as I suspect), I don't think we have a good handle on service pressure at this time.

DDA

Looks Belgian in style but the Proof Marks are a mystery to me and do not seem to be Belgian. I would suspect some other European maker from that region that does not have marks recognised by the C.I.P. nations. Dutch maybe? Hope some of our European members can come in on this. Lagopus.....

I had posted on another website and was not wanting to bias anyone, but with the term choke & position along w/ trademark type stamps, I'm fairly confident it is a Belgian in the white platform, or tubeset, that was completed in Italy before the proof facility was in operation. So the marks are maker process marks or maker marks.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I'm finding Mannesmann to be a producer of seamless tubes.

They date to 1890 or so, and apparently use a variation of rotary forging.

I find no reference to them as a steel maker.

'Acier Mannesman Special' would seem to be an embellishment along the lines of 'Fine Corinthian Leather'. It's essentially meaningless.

Again, caution. The design and construction of this piece is highly suspect.

I think I have viewed such an example, but I wouldn't doubt seeing something similar that has Mannesman and also Acier Cockerill on a barrel band & on the flats. So I would assume it was a tube of Cockerill stahl formed by the Mannesman process?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Since the rib markings misspelled "Mannesman" (one "n" at the end instead of two), I'd suspect this might indicate some of the typical Belgian misdirection, such as "T. Parker" to capitalize on a familiar name. I have a Belgian "W Evans" that is not a William Evans. Not familiar enough with German language to know if the second "n" makes a difference.

Exactly.

I agree with your assessment and questions. As I always maintained buying obscure or unknown Belgian guild guns is worthy endeavor for advanced double gun aficionados.

I'm not sure that the omission of the last "n" means a whole lot, less the inexperienced engraver just forgot the "n". The following phrase found on similar modells seems to pair w/ Acier Mannesmann:

"Acier Mannesmann Special Pour l'emploi Rationnel des Poudres Pyroxylees"

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I've followed this and the thread on Shotgunworld http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopi...94f589fba73e54a
and have nothing smart to contribute but will do so anyway.

I see no Belgian proofmarks, specifically no Perron nor Provisional Proof.
No luck searching the internet for 'M over CM' or 'CLA'.
I think the gun is a modern reproduction, possibly Italian, but can't explain the absence of Italian proofmarks.

Unless it was cobbled together recently from old components, I still contend it is from right around WWI. Not sure why, but the Italians commenced sourcing the mechanics @ Liege about this time & at first the advertising was in French & followed by Italian:

Fucile Rinforzato Speciale Per Polveri Bianche

There are just too many Acier Mannesmann...... that landed up in Italy for those to not be inland production of foreign components.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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Thanks to all, for your inputs, insights & feedback - I appreciate every bit of it.


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A few terms atop Belgian type longarms:

Acier Special Pour Poudre Pyroxyl�e

Pour Poudres Blanches

FUSIL SPECIAL POUR HONORER BLANCHES(?)

FUSIL SPECIAL POUR POUDRE BLANCHE

Poudre Pyroxyl�e

I'm sure we can include: Acier Mannesman Special. I'll see what other French phrases on which I might stumble.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Fabrication Speciale Pour L'Emploi Rationnel Des Poudres Sans Fum�e

ACIER GARANTI

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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FWIW, while surfing for information about Belgian gun marks today, I read that Belgian shotguns with only the word "CHOKE" and the bore size, which is what's stamped onto the barrel bottom of this example, were made after 1924.

Might this gun have, ergo, been made after 1924 ?

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Nah, if it had one Belgian proofmark, it would wear the full regiment of marks. It is either an early Italian double prior to the opening of the proof facility or adoption by the Italians of the International Proof Conference or something cobbled together during wartime seeing it doesn't wear a full contingent of proofmarks from any country.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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Sorry for the long lag time.........

I suffered some complications, long after my open heart surgery, and only got to shoot this gun. (Brrr, MAN ! Was it ever cold out !)

Anyway, my first shots were to check the POI @ 30yds (All I shot with it was 2-1/2" RST lo-pressure shells) - both barrel's convergence was very close (about 8" apart) with a fairly even shot dispersion.

Each barrel was apparently choked differently, looking like IC/MOD.

After the POI check, I shot a half round of Trap, breaking 9 out of 13 clays - I stopped because it was very cold out, and I was fairly satisfied with the performance.



The gun developed some issues during the day:

* The LH hammer would not latch at full cock - it turned out that the tumbler inside the lockplate was soft & the sear had worn it, so I recut the cocking notch & case hardened the tumbler to fix it.

* A sticking/protruding RH firing pin, which I repaired via removing a small burr from the inside of the nipple that retains the FP and it's return spring in the frame.

* And later, an intermittent "no hammer drop" when the LH trigger was pulled - which turned out to be a sloppy trigger pivot point on that side, fixed with a new pivot pin and a thin shim to remove the side slop.

* Seeing the soft/worn LH lock's tumbler, I pulled the RH lock & found no wear there, but case hardened the RH lock's tumbler while I was about the job.



Also, since last Fall, I stumbled across a like-new luggage-style case for $20, that the hammer gun fitted nicely;







Hopefully, I'll be able to shoot it a little more before hunting season this coming Fall - once I get past an infection I developed last week (sigh).



Again, thank you all, for your insight/input about this hammer gun.


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The Firm Mannesman, was(is)a large company that made many things. As I recall, while working in the Facilities Engineers at Wuerzburg, pipe and other materials in several of our contracts were supplied by Firma Mannesman.
Mike

Hell of a case for $20!

Looks like a CSM canvas and leather one, $325.00 separately.
Karl

I thought so, too - since the yard sale where I bought it was in Connecticut.

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