|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
0 members (),
715
guests, and
4
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums10
Topics39,515
Posts562,232
Members14,590
| |
Most Online9,918
Jul 28th, 2025
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
"Rolling tubes by the Mannesman process."
I'd suggest approaching this gun with extreme caution. If the barrels are seam welded rolled tubes (as I suspect), I don't think we have a good handle on service pressure at this time.
DDA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,768 Likes: 115
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,768 Likes: 115 |
Looks Belgian in style but the Proof Marks are a mystery to me and do not seem to be Belgian. I would suspect some other European maker from that region that does not have marks recognised by the C.I.P. nations. Dutch maybe? Hope some of our European members can come in on this. Lagopus.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,083 Likes: 380
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,083 Likes: 380 |
I had posted on another website and was not wanting to bias anyone, but with the term choke & position along w/ trademark type stamps, I'm fairly confident it is a Belgian in the white platform, or tubeset, that was completed in Italy before the proof facility was in operation. So the marks are maker process marks or maker marks.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,109 Likes: 78
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,109 Likes: 78 |
I'm finding Mannesmann to be a producer of seamless tubes.
They date to 1890 or so, and apparently use a variation of rotary forging.
I find no reference to them as a steel maker.
'Acier Mannesman Special' would seem to be an embellishment along the lines of 'Fine Corinthian Leather'. It's essentially meaningless.
Again, caution. The design and construction of this piece is highly suspect.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,083 Likes: 380
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,083 Likes: 380 |
I think I have viewed such an example, but I wouldn't doubt seeing something similar that has Mannesman and also Acier Cockerill on a barrel band & on the flats. So I would assume it was a tube of Cockerill stahl formed by the Mannesman process?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,476 Likes: 54
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,476 Likes: 54 |
Since the rib markings misspelled "Mannesman" (one "n" at the end instead of two), I'd suspect this might indicate some of the typical Belgian misdirection, such as "T. Parker" to capitalize on a familiar name. I have a Belgian "W Evans" that is not a William Evans. Not familiar enough with German language to know if the second "n" makes a difference.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,109 Likes: 78
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,109 Likes: 78 |
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,409 Likes: 4
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,409 Likes: 4 |
Alarm bells ringing here.
If one is advertising the steel maker or process used in one's wares, it would be most proper to spell the name correctly. To do otherwise rather defeats the intent.
The trigger guard is already turning purple from the over temp hot salt bath.
Anyone believe this gun started life all blue like that?
I'm unable to locate that 'proof mark'.
There is no way to know or even guess at the chambers being original.
The more I look at it, the more I find myself suffering from an eye irritation.
Personally, I wouldn't shoot it with ANY load.
I agree with your assessment and questions. As I always maintained buying obscure or unknown Belgian guild guns is worthy endeavor for advanced double gun aficionados.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,083 Likes: 380
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,083 Likes: 380 |
I'm not sure that the omission of the last "n" means a whole lot, less the inexperienced engraver just forgot the "n". The following phrase found on similar modells seems to pair w/ Acier Mannesmann:
"Acier Mannesmann Special Pour l'emploi Rationnel des Poudres Pyroxylees"
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 462
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 462 |
I've followed this and the thread on Shotgunworld http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopi...94f589fba73e54aand have nothing smart to contribute but will do so anyway. I see no Belgian proofmarks, specifically no Perron nor Provisional Proof. No luck searching the internet for 'M over CM' or 'CLA'. I think the gun is a modern reproduction, possibly Italian, but can't explain the absence of Italian proofmarks.
|
|
|
|
|
