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Joined: Feb 2013
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
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Could someone give me a realistic current market price for a Robust in 12 gauge and in about 65-70 percent condition, English stock, 2.75" chambers, etc?
Thank you...
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Joined: Mar 2011
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Caleb, do you know what model No. it is? Gil
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Joined: Nov 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
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It starts at about $500-$600 for basic BLNE and goes on from there. More info needed to give better estimate.
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
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Strangely, there is no model marked on the bottom of the receiver. It is surely a Robust though. It has the lovely sling in the stock and a canon raye bore in the right tube. It is listed as having light pitting in the bore. Maybe 40% case colors are left on the receiver.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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The "canon raye", which many people mistake as being a slug barrel, is in fact for greater shot dispersion. Often found on French guns made for hunting woodcock.
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Joined: Nov 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
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The "canon raye", which many people mistake as being a slug barrel, is in fact for greater shot dispersion. Often found on French guns made for hunting woodcock. Yes, they call them becasse or becassier guns with right barrel or lower barrel having some shallow rifling showing. Italian gun also use technology like this.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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That was my intent. Grouse and Woodcock.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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The Supra (rifled) barrel as marketed by the manu is also very useful for shooting European rabbits (oryctolagus cuniculus) while hunting them with a ferret. That was far more common than woodcock hunting.
WC-
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 182 |
The MF Robusts I see on GB and GI tend to be priced pretty low or they stay on the market a long time. I'd say they are significantly undervalued because they tend to be reliable, well-balanced and durable. An old MF ad says basically "the gun that deserves its name." I paid $1100 for a Model 202-20 16-bore made in 1931 in great original condition. That was probably too much, and I doubt I could get my money back, but it's a great little game gun I don't have to worry about in the field. I recall seeing only one Robust listed for above $2k, a fully engraved No. 7 that has since been reduced to $1100.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
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I am familiar with the #7 16ga. of which you speak. A man I know had it for a while and it was as good as advertised. A real deal of well made gun. I thought about buying it when it was listed at $1400.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I've been tempted too! The old MF engravers knew their trade and just from the pics the work looks very fine. In terms of fit, finish, internals, and handling, they may be one of the best values out there relative to American and Birmingham boxlocks of comparable vintage.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,758 Likes: 715 |
With production of 950,000 units, one of the most successful models of SxS ever made. And I'd take a Robust over any American model that surpassed the 1,000,000 gun production level.
(311, I'm talking to you!)
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Just in case anyone's curious, scroll down through the 16s: http://www.vintagedoubles.com/catalog/?sort=4I have no connection whatever with this vendor.....
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Joined: Feb 2013
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 663 Likes: 22 |
I believe this exact model was for sale on Gunsinternational this summer for around $800. It was a 12...
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,575 Likes: 182
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,575 Likes: 182 |
The Supra (rifled) barrel as marketed by the manu is also very useful for shooting European rabbits (oryctolagus cuniculus) while hunting them with a ferret. That was far more common than woodcock hunting.
WC- Looking at the Verney-Carron catalog from 1999, they list two models with "tube inferieur raye dispersant": Grand Becassier, Plume Becassier. They do add in their text, after some references to woodcock hunting, that the gun is also useful "for short distance shooting of small game". Might be they called them woodcock guns because that sounds more prestigious than rabbit gun.
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Joined: Feb 2013
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 663 Likes: 22 |
I actually purchased the gun I was asking about in my original post. Once I have it in hand, I'll post pictures.
Not that I would ever have a need, but has anyone shot slugs through one of these Supra rifled bores? Did the slower twist hinder accuracy? Did it have any additional accuracy effect over smoothbore?
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Posts: 11,289 Likes: 1753 |
Every one of them I have seen had the "Non Pour Balle" warning on the flats. It isn't a slug gun, the barrels are light enough you could do damage to them using slugs in them.
Every Frenchman I ever met was crazy about woodcock hunting, and much more crazy about woodcock eating. I never met one who felt that way about rabbits or hares.
I suppose things change, but, the gunmakers I talked with about their hunting had Spaniels and English Cockers. Nobody mentioned ferrets. The Bruchet's apprentice, Jerome, had a cocker.
Herv Bruchet was not a hunter or shooter. I don't believe Richard Levi was, either. Both guys told me that on Friday, when they walked out of their respective shops, they were all done thinking about guns, shooting or hunting until they came back on Monday morning.
Hand building fine guns was their job. Both men were passionate about other things.
Best,
Ted
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,465 Likes: 13 |
The person or people behind this outfit seem to know classic guns and have good sense of humor. Prices also seem fair. Looks like good place to go shopping for vintage European guns.
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Posts: 11,575 Likes: 182
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,575 Likes: 182 |
Every one of them I have seen had the "Non Pour Balle" warning on the flats. It isn't a slug gun, the barrels are light enough you could do damage to them using slugs in them.
Every Frenchman I ever met was crazy about woodcock hunting, and much more crazy about woodcock eating. I never met one who felt that way about rabbits or hares.
I suppose things change, but, the gunmakers I talked with about their hunting had Spaniels and English Cockers. Nobody mentioned ferrets. The Bruchet's apprentice, Jerome, had a cocker.
Herv Bruchet was not a hunter or shooter. I don't believe Richard Levi was, either. Both guys told me that on Friday, when they walked out of their respective shops, they were all done thinking about guns, shooting or hunting until they came back on Monday morning.
Hand building fine guns was their job. Both men were passionate about other things.
Best,
Ted I don't know where they hunt woodcock in France. The only time I ever was involved in an attempt to walk up European woodcock (as opposed to seeing the odd doodle along with pheasants and partridge in a drive) was in Scotland. The only way to traverse the cover we walked was by following sheep paths. Brush about waist high or a bit higher. Don't think pointing dogs would have been very useful. A nice little flusher would have been just the thing. All we had were a couple Scots whacking the brush with sticks. We were too early for woodcock.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,758 Likes: 715 |
The person or people behind this outfit seem to know classic guns and have good sense of humor. Prices also seem fair. Looks like good place to go shopping for vintage European guns. Our resident double gun expert has just discovered Kirby's site. Well done JM. Thank you for the review. I'm sure Kirby will be pleased to know his business seems to have passed muster with you.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
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A historic, "Eureka" moment in our hobby.
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Joined: Nov 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,465 Likes: 13 |
The person or people behind this outfit seem to know classic guns and have good sense of humor. Prices also seem fair. Looks like good place to go shopping for vintage European guns. Our resident double gun expert has just discovered Kirby's site. Well done JM. Thank you for the review. I'm sure Kirby will be pleased to know his business seems to have passed muster with you. No, one of our esteemed members Run With The Fox has mentioned this site long time ago. I have no problem giving credit where credit is due.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Posts: 12,106 Likes: 856 |
You also have no problem telling us that you bought guns that were actually on layaway, and then backed out of the commitment. I have developed "sweet tooth" for police shotguns. I found another Police Magnum with six shot tube, XS frond sight and Scattergun Technologies rear ghost ring. I wish I could stop buying them, but I can't. I do not know how to stop myself. Still looking for perfect classic SxS for myself. Shopping for one is fun, but once I find exactly what I need at fair price I will be done with buying double guns unless I find rifle in calibers like 7x57R, 7x65R, 9,3x54R, .30-40 Krag, .30-30, or .303 British. Post #476286 3/27/17 At one time or another but not at same time I had several guns on layaway. A 20ga Ithaca NID, Ithaca Deluxe Solid Rib ca.1955, 16ga Browning Citori, Remington 870 Police Magnum. I have chosen not to complete sale on any of those. . I had bunch of guns I put money on but found something different I liked down the road. There was a Perazzi O/U, Ithaca NID, Ithaca 37 Supreme solid rib, Remington 879 Police Magnum, Browning Citori. I have now cured that problem and no longer put stuff on layaway because it does not work for me. I now put stuff on 24 hour hold. If a man can't make their mind in 24 hours they never will.
Oops, I forgot. You can add 16ga Ugartechea BLE 25" with Churchill "triangular rib" to the five day hold status line. My friend from work ended up with that gun.
I'm well regarded as I have been a good customer since 1999. Jagermeister's Gun Buying Fantasy-- http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=464153&page=1I have no problem giving discredit where discredit is due.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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The Manufrance 1930 catalog specifies that the Supra barrel is intended for under 16 meter (50ft) shotshell shooting.
It also says that it is very accurate with slugs. Actually they mention their slugs.
I am not sure how this would work with modern slugs.
As for woodcocks, they are migratory birds and show up in November/December IIRC. They would be most everywhere, but are quite rare now. I have only seen one.
WC-
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,289 Likes: 1753 |
There might be pumpkin ball slugs available somewhere in the world, but, I've never seen them. The Foster type slug has been in use for a very long time, here in the states, and in Europe.
Even if a gun with a Raye barrel didn't have the "Non Pour La Balle" marking, I'd be very hesitant to try it.
The last time I was in St. Etienne, a two man shop, using an ancient American Cincinati lathe, was the only place left cutting Raye barrels for the trade. The operator suggested to me that there were better options for using slugs than a Raye barrel.
I just put a photo of a nice, fat, European woodcock up in the hunting pictures thread.
It was taken in Sweden. I don't doubt they are rare, today.
Best,
Ted
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Joined: Mar 2011
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
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European woodcock may be rare in parts of their historic range, but in other places they migrate in populations sufficient to attract hunters. Illegal Italian Woodcock Recipe. Most likely illegal not because of official position that it is not hygienic, but too many Italian chefs were killed immediately after telling customers what they just ate. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tcl-ZoFwJXYWoodcock hunting in Scotland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bekS4BUCitkFrance: http://www.gourmetfly.com/Huntw.htm
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Boxlock
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Boxlock
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In Sweden woodcock is plentyful at times and scarce the next day. They are impossible to figure out. The birds pass us in the spring on their way to Balticum and Russia and then in the fall on their way back to France, Italy, Ireland and Great Britain. After a frosty november night there can be lots of woodcock where there were none the day before. In Denmark, our neighbor country, they have a word for it, "sneppefald". The translation would be "Woodcock rain".
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,575 Likes: 182 |
The Manufrance 1930 catalog specifies that the Supra barrel is intended for under 16 meter (50ft) shotshell shooting.
It also says that it is very accurate with slugs. Actually they mention their slugs.
I am not sure how this would work with modern slugs.
As for woodcocks, they are migratory birds and show up in November/December IIRC. They would be most everywhere, but are quite rare now. I have only seen one.
WC-
Not at all rare in Scotland in late Nov/Dec. I've shot driven birds over there several times, and we always see some on drives. I missed a perfect opportunity when I misidentified one until it was too late. Stomping my feet, swearing at myself . . . and the young lady picker-up behind me, with her spaniel, was having a good laugh. On another drive, I had 2 or 3 pass by. Would've been good chances, but they were too low. The Beaters' Protective Association says those are shots you don't take. Have also stood outside by the light of the moon and attempted to pass shoot them. Other members of our group have scored that way. I've never had a shot at one.
Last edited by L. Brown; 10/30/17 08:59 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Speaking of woodcock, I missed one this afternoon. I blame the gun... And a picture of the betrayer... 
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,465 Likes: 13 |
Speaking of woodcock, I missed one this afternoon. I blame the gun... And a picture of the betrayer... That is nice field gun. Reminds me of Henri Pieper BLNE with Baynard? steel barrels I looked over. That one had blackened receiver neat third fastener/slide type fastening and screw through wood behind receiver to prevent stock splitting at the tang. Yours has much nicer wood the other gun had plain light colored Walnut w/o much figure which I was told by another member was French. It was similar to what is found on knockabout field grade Darnes and Brownings from 1960s.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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That gun was marketed by Geco. From what I can tell, it was made by Fabrique National and is their "Anson" model. I would also wager it was a pre-WWII gun. Their later models (post-war) were called the "New Anson" if I recall correctly and they were built a bit different and were heavier. This earlier model has a Greener cross-bolt, side clips, and very subtle border engraving (more like outlining). It was built as a 12-70 gun and weighs 6.5 lbs with 28" barrels. I had the chokes opened to skeet 1 and skeet 2, though I'm not certain the smith opened them up quite enough. I have yet to pattern it, but it's lively in the hand and I like to carry different guns on different days. It keeps things interesting and fun, so that's why she came out in the woods with me today.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2013
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Big let down. The bores were at minimum 60% pitted. This was after I had the the store representative personally inspect the gun and answer my questions over the phone. He told me he did not see any pitting and the bores were very good. Sadly that was not the case. It's going back for a full refund.
I really BIG thank you to GLS and DaveinMaine for all their help and assistance through this. Shame it didnt work out.
C'est la vie...
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