doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Darnes, opinions

I have always admired the french made sliding breech Darnes. Never handled or shot one though. What are they like to use ? The only real gripe i have heard is they do not have a positive ejection system.

The vintage examples generally were stocked to fit a runty 9 year old, in my experience.

Well, they don't throw hulls over the shoulder, but do a more than adequate job of ejecting them completely out of the chamber when fired for either tilting the gun for them to fall on the ground or grabbing them for pocketing as they lie loose atop the opened action. An un-fired round is partially extracted for finger tip removal. A Darne has fewer parts for safety, percussion, extraction/ejection, and "fastening" than the typical break-open or "tipping" (Darne's description) sxs. 25 to 41 parts respectively. Some folks don't like the safety's location, but there is a field work around. If you haven't done so, there's a compilation of info in the Double Gun FAQ page which is the second listed forum. Gil

My Darne R-10 is stocked perfectly for me, gently ejects fired shells onto the action flat for pick up or dumping, has a full raised rib on 28" barrels choked IC & M, and has accounted for lots and lots of doves over the years. It is not for sale...Geo

My R10 fits me just fine as well although they definitely are a gun that should be shouldered if at all possible before purchase.

They are the most oddball sxs ever made, but those who drive Saabs and are non-conformists are attracted to them. I wouldn't have one based purely on aesthetics, but their adherents love them. Most have the most abominable swamped rib extant, though there are those with a level rib like Geo Newbern's. They seem to be well-made guns.
JR

You will never see one "off face". Gil

You have to find one that fits. You can't bend the wrist to adjust fit, as there is a steel rod running the length of it. If you are in Dublin, I'd expect you have access to 2 1/2" ammunition, more so than most Americans, a good thing, as I'd also expect most of the guns you see will be 2 1/2" chamber. Typically, a Darne will feature heavy proof, and barrels, not always, but far more often than not. Since the guns tend toward being light in weight, you will find, usually, that the gun is capable of digesting heavier rounds than you can stand to use. This is actually a good thing. Many will be tightly choked, this is usually not a good thing. A lot of them have sling swivels installed, something most Americans find outright offensive. I'm not in that group, because my hunting is rough hunting, about as rough as it comes. There are two basic designs, small key, as in Halifax, or R model, and large key, as in P or V model. There is no parts interchange between the two models, they have nothing in common except that the breech slides. The large key guns cost more money, and have better trigger pulls, out of the box. The small key guns are, of course, more common.
The advice to shoulder and, if possible, shoot one, is very well taken. If the buttstock is the least bit loose, do not fire it-this is good advice with any gun, actually, but, a Darne will break the stock if used in this condition, sooner, rather than later.
If you get past the admiration stage, don't be afraid to ask a few more questions, here, before plunking down your money. I'm sure I've forgotten something.
Full disclosure, I imported them to the western side of planet earth for over a decade, and didn't deal in used guns, unless they fit me. I have actually lost count of how many I've owned, and have five guns at the moment, of both types.

I love mine. NOT to the exclusion of other types of shotguns. I have known people in that camp, however.

Never owned or driven a Saab, and my drinking PBR from the can is about as non-conformist a thing as I can come up with.

Good luck in your quest.


Best,
Ted

I once handled a Peugeot. It seemed a bit rough in the making. Still, there is something I find charming about the Darne profile.

John

Most Darnes i see advertised have 2 3/4" chambers. Also as you say they appear to be short in the stock because all seem to have some sort of extension, either wood or thick recoil pad on the stocks.

Another observation on stock LOP. All of my Darnes LOP's are at least 1/2" to 1" longer than what I would normally shoot in either straight grip or semi-pistol. My standard actioned guns I shoot 14 5/8" LOP on a straight stock. My Darnes with straight stock are 15 1/4". Stock dimensions at either the dac, dah, toe in/out and cast remain the same. Hand placement is different when using a Darne, the feel will be much different than what you're used to but it takes no time at all to get used to it.
When it comes to the old school tight bores and chokes, I found that using loads with felt or fiber wads improves patterns a lot.
I've owned a few Darnes over the years. Still own and use a nice Halifax 16 as my go to chukar gun. Old ones, new ones, V and R's, all lightweights, 12, 20, 16's. I seriously loved them all. There's a few I still wish I had. If I ever buy another one, I'll be bringing it in from France. The prices there are much more reasonable for higher graded guns. In the future, I'd like to find a nice Bruchet 12 or 16, straight grip, V-19 or V-21 with 28" bbls.

Even worse, Ted, you drive a Citroen, and nowadays, PBR is conformity reversed. The fact remains, Darnes are strange guns. I yield to the fact that you love them, and that's a good thing.
JR

I have 2, a 10 gauge R model (finished equivalent to an R-10, but old enough that I don't think it was then described as such)with 27-1/2 inch barrels and a 12 gauge P model finished to grade 19 with 30 inch barrels. Both are lovely guns, although the 12 gauge trigger pull is a bit heavy and not really adjustable (both Kirk Merrington and Geoffrey Gournet have looked at the issue and said they wouldn't touch it and JJ Perodeau passed without looking at the gun after hearing Kirk and Geoffrey had tried without success), so I would recommend having a trigger pull gauge with you in addition to the other measuring tools. Both had adult sized stocks (14 inches plus) and relatively little drop, which meant I could shoot them without changing my shooting style.

I have looked extensively for a long barreled 28 gauge, but have not located any that were within my price range.

16 gauge guns with short barrels (25-1/2 inches) seem to predominate and many have stocks with lots of drop. The recommendation that you handle and, if possible, shoot one before purchasing is well worth considering.

For the level of fit and finish, a higher quality Darne, particularly from the pre-WWII period will match (or sometimes better) a similar grade British gun from the same period and generally prove to be more robust, but at a fairly steep discount in price.

Go for it.

I've been messing with shotguns since I was 10 years old in Ireland. My father had a Winchester pump that he had taken from a Black and Tan and there were all kinds of old hammer guns knocking around in people's houses at that time. There were even a few punt gunners still on the Shannon then. So over a life time I've owned or used a few score of 'em. Nearly all sold or traded off. A few I regret. Only two I wouldn't dream of selling. One of them is a Darne. A 16 bore V action that was sold to me in Paris as a P17. In fact it has the exact same engraving and action as a V19 but not the long tang. It also has standard sling swivels, not the kind that retracts into the stock. I think the dealer thought it was a P17 became it has 7 stars across the barrel flats. This gun has all the features I admire about Darne. Light weight, swamped top rib, no bottom rib, incredible action strength.
The craftsmanship is superb. Run your hand over where parts meet and encounter no gaps or I'll matched surfaces. Surprisingly many otherwise well made guns fail this test. Did I mention slick as catshit operation.

No, I drive either a 2015 F150, or, a 1967 Oldsmobile 442. I can't tell you the last time I saw a Citroen, and can't ever remember riding in one.
I like Sam Adams, but, have many neighbors that show up empty handed, and, thirsty. PBR was always a good compromise between neighbor beer (think Red, White and Blue, or Pfieffer) and the good stuff.
I've been drinking PBR since before the tallboy guzzling hipsters in downtown were born. PBR came back, around the time all the brew pubs were getting started in this part of the world.
A Darne isn't strange to a lot of people, since, there are about a million of them out there. I've seen a double barreled pinfire, with a bolt action on either side-that is strange. Or, an O/U that the barrels rotate, to allow one hammer to be used for both barrels.
Off the cuff observation, if a guy can't walk and chew gun at the same time, he won't like a Darne. Ditto the kids who were picked last, or, not at all, for pickup games as kids.

Just what I've seen, man. Have a beer, and deal with it.


Best,
Ted

You have to play with one to see if you like what you hold. The quintessential French upland game gun is Manufrance Ideal. 'Ideal' is very good name and represents one of the best specialty two barrel guns one can buy.

I'm so glad you think so, JM. Here's a pic of mine, a grade 6R EE. And bonny, it has extremely positive ejectors!

Show off. Gil

Dustin,
The factory recommended 1cm longer than usual stock dimensions. A leather slip on pad is your friend with a Darne, especially if winter is coming.

Best,
Ted

I found less adored version in 16ga at local Cabela's. Unfortunately the bores were in "pissed in and not flushed condition", therefore, the gun could not be purchased by me. I recommend these as working man's version of Scottish round-actioned game gun. That how I try to help poor souls that don't have $20,000 to spend on used gun in very good shape at drop of a hat.

PS. If one is shopping for real nice car I recommend Lexus.

Not real handy if you have to move 3K+ of stove wood, out of the state forest you cut it down at, or, for hunting in same.

I like a lot of different French guns, but, never warmed up to an Ideal.


Best,
Ted

The only problem I have with an Ideal is that when you shoot both barrels, you have to re-cock both locks with your index finger when you pull that opener on the trigger guard. I usually turn the gun over and pull with my thumb...Geo

That why Ted likes them ?

Well, always good to see a new Darne thread! Along with that other classic French idiosyncrasy the Manufrance Ideal already mentioned, they are a bit of acquired taste. Some love them--in my experience generally people of good character, taste, and discrimination--while others don't. Vive la Difference!

For me, the ejection/extraction systems is one of the Darne's strong points. You pull the cocking lever up, the breech block slides back, and any newly emptied shell case is pulled back onto the action flats, ready to roll effortlessly onto the ground or into your waiting hand. Unless you're shooting driven game and your invitation for next season hinges on how many birds you harvest for the landowner's sale to the game vendor, auto ejectors have limited utilitarian value. Lots of guys find themselves stooping to pick the ejected empties out of the mud and taking more time than they would just lifting them out of conventional extractors and certainly more hassle than the Darne extraction system.

The R model Darne is a rugged, reliable time-tested design, usually found on light, agile upland doubles with superb balance and handling characteristics. I love my 20b R15 and generally keep track of what's on the market just in case something really cool shows up. A week from now I'll be in the Adirondacks grouse woods rotating between my Darne 20 (5# 9 oz) and my MF Ideal 16 (6# 1 oz). I know it's better to stick with just one gun, but I have trouble deciding between these classics, even though the Ideal is the better specimen of its kind.

Regarding stock dimensions, quite a few Darnes have pretty generic specs-- DAC around 1.5", DAH around 2.5", little if any cast, and LOP somewhere between 14" and 15". Like Ted says, it pays to ask before taking the plunge, but shooters who do well with "average" stock dimensions have a decent chance of finding a Darne that fits.

Besides stock dimensions, the major pitfalls in buying a Darne are the same as with other double guns--pitted or over-lapped out barrels, cracks in the wood that may or may not be apparent, mechanical soundness, etc. Finding a good double gun expert who knows his (or her) Darnes to check it out before or soon after buying is a good idea. I ignored that advice when I got my 20, and 3 years later discovered that a critical part was broken when the thing just stopped working.

Bill,
What broke? I usually have a good idea of whose gun is broke, and, when, as folks start with me when they need repairs/parts!

Nobody, at the moment, although an Englishman has asked me to keep my eyes open for a sub gauge V gun.


Best,
Ted

Hey Ted,

The little fork thing behind the breech was missing a tine! I should have taken your advice and sent it to Geoff Gournet or Kirk Merrington right away, but it seemed to shoot fine until it didn't. GG took it in and gave it a full strip/clean/adjust/repair. It's working great now.

BW

My experience regarding stock dimensions on a Darne pretty much mirror Bills, with the exception of cast. Almost all semi-pistol Darne stocks I have encountered had significant cast off. 3/8" seems to be the norm with a few examples pushing 1/2". Straight stocked Darnes, I've owned 3...have all been cast neutral.
Another note...the Darne is the strongest double shotgun action made, it's only competitor to that title is probably Hoenigs Rotary Round.

Interesting about semi-pistol versus straight stock cast and good to know! My 20 has straight stock, as did the only other Darne that I've actually handled, an R-model Bruchet 12.

Yes, that French pull apart stuff is very strong even when action is made of light alloy. I recall seeing pics of light weight Bretton O/U chambered in 9,3x74R. Avg. Pmax of that cartridge is 300MPa.

Bill,
If an R model Darne is broken, that is usually what it is. If you have heard this little sermon of mine before, I'm sorry, but, it is worth repeating:

Never, EVER use a tool of any type to press on the forks of the main action spring on a Darne R model. Use only your finger. It only moves about 1/8th inch for removing the barrels. Using a tool will break the spring.

Sermon over.


Best,
Ted

I heard it, Father Ted, and I live it!!! That's how the gun arrived but I was too green to know what I was looking at and to lazy or distracted to get it straight to someone who would know. It all worked out for the best. I bought the gun for around $1k less than an R15 generally sells for and spent about that much getting it right.

I really love mine. It's a lower grade, utility gun and I love its eccentricities. Lightweight. I first saw a Darne in Vietnam, thought it was weird then and think so now. Mine is plain-stocked and unadorned, but I really like the 20 ga little fellow. I have no problem with the LOP; like to get up close. If it was a 12 ga I might object. Probably the last shotgun I'll buy.

Thanks to Argo and his ongoing quest for more accurate dating of French guns, we can say this is pre 1912 and post 1900, which, seems vintage enough for me:






Almost perfect dimensions, but, a bit short to use with just a t-shirt. It will be exactly perfect, come December.

I would have guessed pre 1920 with this gun. Argo narrowed that window down some.

Generalizations are often just that. I'm guilty of it myself. The chokes were .007 and .015, which, isn't all that tight by French standards. Of course, I have no idea if they were altered. Tight chambers, tight bores, all as per usual, and I have no intention of modifing anything on those pristine bores. The righthanded button safety is unusual. I'm having issues with my left eye, and this gun will be instrumental in helping me to learn to shoot right handed.

Best,
Ted

A Darne in France dies every time one is put in the trunk of an Oldsmobile.

https://youtu.be/SbF0qP7tgeU


________________________
Every Darne deserves a DS.
https://youtu.be/V6bIh2HQA44

Ted, I think we can do better than 1900-1912. Is that the Halifax 3 you pictured previously? What's the serial number (can't make it out from the "dating early 20th Century Shotguns" line). But if it has an "A" prefix, per the SN chart posted by GLS (with all its imperfections) - it figure it to be 1910. Here's the analysis"

The "letter" series began in 1910. If your gun has a letter series SN and the cm chamber mark, it would date the Halifax 3 between 1910 and 1912.

We've posted Darnes in the "C600" series with both cm and mm stamps - meaning they almost certainly were mid 1912 when the chamber stamps changed:
-- C692, a 12 gauge with a chamber stamp 6.5".
-- C643, a 20 gauge with a chamber stamp "70".

Analysis continued:
-- 1910-1912 - A001 to C650 = 2650 guns (more or less) made with chambers in cm...beginning with A0001 - ending about C650 or so)....
-- Since we don't know when in 1910 the A series began or exactly what month in 1912 the cm/mm changeover took place - say anywhere from 20 to 30 months of production = take a stab - if 24 months (June 1910-June 1912) then about 110 a month? Pretty easy then to date the Halifax within 3 or 4 months if the chart is true and yours has an alphabet prefix).



Oh yes, in Spring 1971 I drove across France in a Citroen Deux Chevaux; I owned an Oldsmobile once but in Brussels 1985-88 drove a fuel injected Renault 21, a pocket rocket - ran a BMW out of gas at 130+mph running up from Luxembourg to Brussels..

Argo,
This gun has a bunch of DIFFERENT serial numbers on it, but they are all in the 3500-3900 range-4 digit, no letter prefix.
Further complication is that the Halifax was not cataloged that early, and I suspect there was but one, not the 3 and 4 number grades that came later. The Halifax grade guns tended to come and go with the ups and downs of the economy.
As I stated previously, I owned a V20 Darne that was in the 50,000 serial number range and was dated to 1910 by the Darne factory. The number was less important for accurate dating than the signature of the engraver on the gun, and the quality (lack thereof, actually) of the very old man who was still working into his 90s.

The Olds likes gas, good gas at that. There is nothing like the sound of an American open element, dual exhaust, pushrod V8 coming into the cam and the secondaries of the carb, blasting down a freeway entrance ramp, and that makes it all worth while.

Best,
Ted

I am schooled and I learn...and the Olds from the 1960 muscle car era looked something like this:

^^^^^^^
Gauche.


_______________________
Iso Grifo

Argo, I had the next step up from a Deux Chevaux when I lived in Morocco: Renault R-4. A white R-4 was by far the most common car you saw. It was my "work" car, and with local plates, I really blended in . . . which is why real spies don't drive rare and expensive sports cars. (But I always had to look at the license plate to make sure I was getting into the right car!) On the other hand, that little R-4 wasn't much for vehicular surveillance if the "rabbit" I was chasing drove much faster than 60 mph.

Back to Darnes: They're great if you're shooting paper shells in very humid conditions, when they're likely to get stuck in break action guns. That's supposedly one reason for the design.

Gene,
I actually owned a copy of the 1971 W30 442:



If a guy needed a front clip for that car, you would be out most of 10K.

What I keep in the garage, today:



Having an old car around keeps you proficient with your tools. I just serviced the wheel bearings in the rear axle of the gold 1967 442. I also serviced the fuel pump in my Wife's 2006 Malibu, I enjoy working on an older car much more than newer cars.

You can put many, many Darnes in the trunk of a 1967 442.

Best,
Ted

I have a Darne V21 in the 8C series in 12 bore with 27" barrels.
I admire the engineering - it is beautifully made, but not pleasant to shoot; the trigger pulls are poor (very poor compared to an English gun) and recoil/barrel flip are excessive - even with 3/4 oz loads.
I am used to light English guns, but the Darne has a higher 'apparent recoil' weight for weight on the same cartridges.
It will stay in my cabinet and have occasional outings simply because I like it. A gun for an occasional shot on a walked up day but I would never recommend it for a driven day, where it is slow and cumbersome to reload. The safety catch is also awkward and in typical French fashion, bizarre going forward for 'Safe' and backward for 'Fire'!

John,
Believe it or not, the V safety was made like that to mimic the hammers on a hammer gun, the notion being, at the time, that most folks were familiar with pulling hammers back to fire.
In the event a sport was ordering a new gun, it could be reversed, if he/she wanted. Few were.


Best,
Ted

I wish mine had been reversed. It is the main reason I don't like to use the gun for walked up grouse in Scotland. It's just too easy to forget to pull in back in the heat of the moment when you have been walking hard on rough ground for an hour ....... and you don't get much time for the shot.

I seem to remember enquiring if it could be reversed easily as an afterthought and getting a negative response from whoever it was I asked (possibly William Powell as they did some work on the gun for me).

It can't be reversed after the fact, John. If you know what you want at the time a gun is commisioned, it is possible.
Or, was. I have no evidence the company is producing guns at this time.
Best,
Ted

Does the safety engage automatically when the gun is reloaded ? Thats a feature i dislike and always disable if possible on any gun i own.

No, the safety is manual, but personally, I prefer automatic. It's a matter of what you are used to and I'm used to always sliding the safety catch forward as the gun comes to shoulder.

Ted,
Thanks for posting the photos of that Halifax. The quality really shows. It's really impressive how much care and craftsmanship the best firms put into even their "low-grade" guns before the wars. That's just one beautiful piece. So great you found one that fits so well!

As Ted has pointed out, the R models have a handy workaround using the cocking lever as a safety. It's as ergonomic as you could wish and much bigger than any conventional safety button. I rarely bother with the push-through safety rod on my R15.
Bill

Bill,
I'm guessing you missed the post where I serviced the gun, after I got it.


http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post482504

Best,
Ted

Ted,

Yes, I did miss that when it was current. Thanks for the link. Always something new to learn about these guns. I hadn't known the bit about dry firing with impunity sans snap caps as long as the barrels are fixed. I do seem to recall GG or someone saying they don't bother to relieve the mainsprings when storing the gun. I don't have 20-gauge snap caps. Where to you land--store the gun cocked, use snap caps, or just pull the triggers on empty chambers?

BW

I'm certainly no authority, but I am pretty sure that there is no physical disadvantage to leaving the springs stressed. Springs don't wear out through tension, only through use, back and forth. And then only after a long time.

There may be other reasons for uncocking the gun, but spring wear isn't one of them.

At the factory, the fellas would close the action, and snap both triggers before returning a gun to the rack. When I asked about tools or snap caps for the case, I was given a wave and a head shake. "So much crap that goes in the case of an English gun. For what?"
I have seen a Darne that had the pin in the percutator fall out, it was just retrieved from the action and pounded back in with a bit of varnish on it. Locktite would work, also. It was/is a mid 1930s Halifax, with an Asian Lt's. name carved into the butt stock, and has seen some use, to say the least. Lt. Quay, I think? Doubt anyone here knows him.
That was the only one. I snap my guns before I return them to the safe. No problems.
Don't dry fire a Darne with the barrels removed from the action. While the older guns have a dove-tailed plate in the front of the action, this gave way to a straight walled plate, retained with two screws from the bottom of the sliding breech. Dry firing the dove-tail guns won't hurt anything, but, it severely stresses the screws in the more modern design. When you dry fire any Darne with the barrels in place, the spring loaded extractor plate supports the face plate of the breech, so, no worries.

Best,
Ted

The first Darne I owned, I dry fired it with plastic snap caps in place. Plastic snappies are a bad idea anyhow, but a Darne will flat destroy them.

All I ever do with V Darne is hold both triggers back while closing the breech. That way the strikers don�t engage the sears so springs aren�t compressed.
Can you do this with an R action?

Nial,
I was intrigued with what you posted, and went to try it out. It is not possible on an R model, the triggers trip the sears as the breech gets close to the end of the barrels. When I tried what you described on my V model, the same exact thing happened, the triggers tripped the sears as the breech got close.
Are you sure your gun is a V?
My take on the procedure it is this-I don't want my non-operating hand near the closing breech on a Darne, that my operating hand is busy closing. If something gets pinched between fixed barrels and breech, as the breech is closing, it will most definitely NOT be a day brightener for me.
Don't ask me how I know this.
I won't argue with anyone else's success, but, it isn't the way I go about it.

Plastic snap caps suck, Mr. Brown. The Darne was just making sure you knew that.


Best,
Ted

Ted, this is weird. I�ll get the gun out tomorrow and put it together and have a look. My memory is that the sears protrude up through the flat part of the action just above the triggers and when I pull the triggers they both recede below the flats. So how could they engage the strikers? The old memory isn�t what it used to be but I seem to remember doing the same thing on other Darnes. No, I�m not dead certain I do have a V but every other V I�ve looked at seems exactly the same. I�ve never seen a P. I really don�t know how exactly they differ.
Yours
N

Nialmac:

I have a P, if you want to look at it. I'm not sure where you are in Philadelphia, but I'm in the suburbs about 20 miles from Center City.

Rem

Hi Remington, that�s a very kind offer. Yes I would like to look at it. I�m in Cheltenham. Should I pm my phone number?

Fellas,
DO let me know what you discover. I haven't had a P gun about the place in a long time.

Best,
Ted

Ted,

I know enough about a Darne to know what they are when I see one. The Charlin I assume was a licensed copy of a Darne? But what is the story on the Peugeot?

Can you enlighten us?

John

John,
If you do a search right here using the word Charlin, you will discover a lot more than I care to type. But, I'll give you a few highlights.
A Charlin is a distinct sliding breech gun that is different and unrelated to a Darne, until 1965, anyway. In 1965, the Darne company purchased the Charlin company, and produced the guns alongside Darnes, until stock was exhausted.
The Peugeot would have been produced using 1894 Darne R patent proofed and barreled actions, that were sold out the back door of the Darne company, after the introduction of the new model 1909 Darne, that is the action we are all familiar with today. This is commonly known as a clone. There were many. As a fast rule of thumb, they tend to be well finished, even the guns without a name on them, and they sell for less than a typical Darne.

As I said, a search right here will produce lots of reading and knowledge.

Best,
Ted

I've been worried about the French "quirkiness"...the "Moi, Je Dis NO!" syndrome. Well, take a look at these two images and tell me there's not a similarity!! Since I drove a Deux Chevaux, does this mean I'm susceptible to contracting the more severe disease? Is there an inoculation or something?





I am afraid...yes for the first time in my life I fear the plague.

They were great little cars. That�s a particularly nice one. Unless I�m mistaken the gun looks like a V21? Am I right?

I traded off my old Darne, and now have a Charlin, with a stock extention. I shoot it better than the Darne.

I would also think that is a V21.

Nialmac:

Please check your PMs.

Rem

Thanks Ted. It was the Peugeot I had no info for. I have only ever seen one and it had obviously had a very rough life.

John

John,
Many, have. In addition to serving time in French colonies about the world, there were a few wars on the home soil, you know.

More preaching-I suggest anyone who does not live across the street from 4, ter, Rue de la Convention, across the side street from the St. Etienne chamber of commerce, avoid a project Darne like the plague. If you lived close by, it would be different. There used to be a very good restaurant in the old Manufrance commissary, across the street from the Darne works. You could get a good lunch while your gun was seen to.
But, a Darne project gun is usually a big mistake on this side of the pond.


Best,
Ted