doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Pre WWI Saint Etienne 12 ga with lots of case colo

I've been looking for some time at a pre-WWI Saint Etienne 12 gauge as yet another cheap way to sneak an extra gun into the house in case it's needed by friends. It's an interesting gun; looks clean; Stock has been added to on the comb and it's restocked, reblued. Normal proof for PT so its post 1900. Chambered in cm so its pre 1912. The gun was sold in 2009 for $525 and in 2010 for $351. Not sure what I could get it for.

But here's the question; I've never seen case coloring on a 105 year old French shotgun like this. The seller believes it's original. Is this plausible?

Looks like modern cyanide colors to me.

That begs the next question: What should the Case Colors on a pre-WWI French gun look like?

Ken, I don't know because I've never seen one with case colors...and the case coloring on more modern French guns comes out somewhat garish to American tastes. Edit: Here is an 1878 French gun with case colors:

Ken asked a good question and I'll be darned if I can say with any authority what the case coloring looks like on a 1900-1912 Saint Etienne gun. Dang it - something else to research. Here are a few other French case colored (Jasp�(e); Jaspage) guns...can't date them well (yet) though?

lots of interesting guns with a variety of interesting case colors...original or redo, they are all nice looking...

All beauties. To me, the back action gun and the Darne looks like cyanide, the sidelock looks like traditional case coloring, with the blues somewhat like those St. Ledger produced. I wonder what Manufrance guns looked like? You'd think at least some examples of the Robust with colors would be around, considering how many were made. I'm guessing a firm providing the service was in St. Etienne, anyone know the name if so?

Here is a Ideal and a Robust...don't know whether the case coloring is original (1st is possible; 2nd seems photo enhanced or unlikely?): (search "fusil de chasse" and "Jaspage" or "jaspe" and look at images. It's late..I'll get on this over the next couple of days and figure out what's original and what's not)...

Here's my Robust 226. According to Mourneta's Robust book, the 226 was made from 1930 to 1940. Gil

Gene,
Like this one:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=489300&page=all

There are lots of photos of this Halifax in the post, and I'm too lazy to break them out. The early French bone pack colors are muted, with more faint blues than, say, St. Ledger colors.

Later Darnes, post WWII have cyanide case colors, with or without a lacquer over the top. I've seen the lacquer thick enough that when it chipped off, it took the colors with it, giving the odd appearance of chipped off case colors.

Keep in mind that the French grey you see on higher grade Darne and other French guns, is an actual hardening process, with the quench happening in a solution of potassium prusiate, instead of tap water. The chemistry of the quench can be played with to give color from pewter to almost a silver plated look. I'd say it is no more or less durable than color case hardening. But, it is a hardening process, and not simply a silver color.

Best,
Ted

Ted, that is an excellent erudite explanation of the epoch ..I'm just genetically bound to look into this case color story more. I've never been enamored with case colors...I really like the silver on the Wm Evans my wife owns.

But I didn't buy this gun. partly because it suddenly had a reserve put on it. Here's what I sent to the seller. Hope it'll help the guy sell a gun which has been on the market for 10 years.

"Michael, I bid on your gun but you had the reserve set too high for me.� I actually don't really need another shotgun... But at least I'll identify the gun for you which might help it sell.
-- It is an "Artisanal French Saint Etienne gun" (meaning the gun maker (arquabusier) is not known - typical of the Saint Etienne area)
-- It is "normal proof" (one stamp) (14,223 PKI - stamped from 1896 - 1923)
-- 18.4 is 12 gauge
-- The chamber length stamped on the flats is 6,5 cm...i.e. 2 1/2".� If it now has 2 3/4" chambers, it's been lengthened without being reproofed - fairly common in French guns in America but this can be a worry/sticking point for some.� French barrels though are usually pretty stout.
-- It is proofed for T powder (crown over PT) - the first really smokeless powder in France which came out in 1900
-- Given the PT and the 6.5 mark - the gun was made between 1900 and 1912.
-- "Acier Comprime" is simply "compressed steel," an invented term which is a sort of an advertisement for the steel in the barrel.
-- "Choke Rectifie Perfectione' is just "Perfected Regulated Choke" which really means nothing.
-- "Special pour Pyroxylee" - is another advertisement "Specially for Pyroxylide powder" - i.e. Smokeless.
-- The letters "G.H." in a circle may be the barrel maker - can't identify it.
-- the letters B.A. may be the maker who put the gun together and the 3603 is his serial number series. There were 150 shotgun makers in Saint Etienne at the time. (there is a Boyer A. 62 Rue du 11 Novembre Saint-Etienne - nothing more than this and this info is from post WWII).
-- "Qualite Supre" is "Super quality" - means nothing
-- "En Lingot" - "In Ingot" implying the barrel was made "from an Ingot"
-- The number 50 may be the barrel maker's serial number.
-- I'm not a case color expert but a friend who knows the topic thinks the case coloring might be modern cyanide process redo.�

Anyway, hope you find a buyer for it - French guns are not well known here and it may be hard sale.� My wife is from the Saint Etienne area which explains my interest in the subject. By the way I noticed it was sold twice on Paulin in 2009 for $529 and again in 2010 for $351.� The ads then were identical to your ad now.� Good luck and I hope this was helpful."

Ted,

Very interesting comment you made about seeing case colors removed underneath a chipped off piece of lacquer. Having read Dr. Gaddy's articles many times I thought I had an understanding that the colors we see are actually caused by the irregular microscopic surface structures in the steel itself, causing something similar to a prismatic effect, thus yielding the colors.

I learned years ago that, in absence of lacquer coating, a light coat of any oil will enhance the brilliance of the colors ......... kinda making them "pop". I have never applied a coat of clear lacquer to a color case hardened part, so I cannot answer what I am about to ask. Maybe you, or someone else here can address it. The question is, does the application of lacquer cause the colors to "pop", as does oil? And, if so, could it's removal, as in a chip coming off, reverse that "pop" so that it looked like the colors came off with the chip?

With what I thought I understood about case colors it is hard for me to understand how a flake of old lacquer coming off could change the surface structure enough to "remove" the color(s). Not saying it didn't lessen the appearance of the colors where the chip came off, just questioning how and why?

Thanks, SRH

Stan,
I have never seen what I described as "chipped colors" on anything save Darne R10s with cyanide colors.
The cyanide process is different than the bone pack process, and while both harden the surface of the steel, that is about all the similarity between them.
Putting a thin coat of clear lacquer on case colors does exactly what you say a coat of oil does. But, as the engineers say, there is no free lunch:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100911839

Lacquer that has seen some time and use, ends up looking like this. Two of my Darnes have been recoated, one with the baking lacquer that Brownell's sells, or, used to sell, I only bought it once. But, that product is quite tough. The nice thing about a rattle can job over the colors is you will have case colors to look at for years to come, and 15 minutes in a pan of lacquer thinner will clean it all off. I've used the Krylon Crystal Clear you see in art stores for this task.

Don't be tempted to put it on thick. It looks better, thin.

Of coarse, you still get wear on the edges with a coated gun that sees heavy use, but, it is better than the colors fading away completely IMHO. I like crisp appearing colors with a bit of edge wear better, than, say, 10-25% colors remaining.

Best,
Ted