doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT: Webley pistol

I recently stumbled in to a Webley revolver, a Mark II, .455 caliber. Apparently this gun was born between 1894-1897. That's about all I know about these guns. It was sold to me with 14 boxes of shells, each box contains 12 cartridges and date circa 1943. These shells were all made in Canada. The boxes all say .455 DCM VI. They all have date stamp Dec 13, 1943. I guess they are safe to shoot, but they are almost 75 years old. Are they safe? The gun itself is in very good shape. I've read many were converted to accept .45 ACP. This gun appears unaltered. Anybody know anything about these guns who cares to enlighten me? I'm a shotgun guy and am pretty ignorant re pistols....a gun like this. Thanks for your opinion.

Thanks skeetx. As usual, you know how to find useful information. The gun is pretty neat, being 120 years old. Fiocchi doesn't make the ammo anymore and Hornady used to as well but doesn't either anymore. Ammo appears difficult to find for this particular gun.

A warning about the .455s converted to 45 ACP, the 45 ACP exceeds the pressure limit of the .455, so if you have one that has been converted please use 14000 psi loads. Some say factory 45 Auto Rim may be used safely, however I would not recommend the practice.

buzz: webley's are neat old revolvers and very well made...

however, as yours was made prior to ww1, i would be careful shooting it with ammo made during or after ww1, as pressures may be to high...

mild, black powder pressure handloads sound like a good idea to me...

here is some reloading info:
http://www.tactical-life.com/tactics/reloading-the-webley-revolver/#ms16-webley-lead

check the proof, see if it was reproofed or had nitro proofs.how many of the rounds like you received with the gun were fired in it before you received the firearm?

ed's article references Blue Dot as a suitable powder.

That's a curious choice for an antique revolver.

Were it mine, and I wanted to shoot it....

I would disassemble the factory rounds with an inertia bullet puller, fire the primers and reload the cases with Trail Boss and lead bullets.

This is assuming the cases are Boxer primed, and I have no clue if they are.

This gun does have the NP stamp, so original nitro proofs.

Those WWII ctgs. may be pretty valuable in themselves. I'd look around for a broken box of Fiocchi if you just want to make it go bang a few times and save the originals. (I did shoot up a bunch of Australian-made .455s in a 1918-vintage MKVI and a Colt New Service back in the 1960s when these guns were pretty close to free and ammo was cheap. A local gunshop in Berkeley, CA (!!!) had a case of ex-Irish Army--not IRA--MKVIs and the the owner told me he'd give me my pick of them if I'd clean 'em all. So I did).

I had no problems with the Ozzie ammo except that they were so slow that I could see them in flight!

I'll look at my manual "Cartridge Conversions" to see if my memory is right and you can make .455 cases by thinning the rims of .45 Colt (NOT ACP!) and shortening them.

Mike A.,
You are correct about making cases from 45 Colt(AKA long colt). I wouldn't try 45AR, the head diameter is enough smaller that they may or may not split. Anyway AR is likely harder to find than 45Colt.
Mike

The MkII Webley .455 was made betw mid 1895 and late 1897,,when they changed to the MkIII design. MkIII was used 1897 to '99
The MkIV was placed into service in 1899 and remained till 1913.

All of the .455 Webley revolvers MkI,I*,II, III, & IV are BP revolvers,,though the cylinders on the MkIV did use a different alloy steel in it's mfg than the prior Mk's.
You will find many that were Nitro proofed for Cordite Loads and were continued to be used in service as second line weapons.

It wasn't till the intro of the MkV in 1913 that the revolver was specificly designed for use with 'nitro/smokeless powder'.
The MkVI is of course proofed for that as well.

That thousands of these have been cut for 45acp and have fired more than that many over the counter 45acp rounds is a fine test of their strength.
I've owned several MkI and MkII Webleys that were shaved for 45acp and undoubtedly shot a lot with that ammo and still in one piece.. But it's kind of like the damascus bbl thing,,how many proof rounds do you want to put through one., and I have seen more than a couple with blown cylinders and top straps over the years.

Take it easy on them, they are fine revolvers. Keep the loads down.
WW2 ammo is collectible. It is most likely loaded w/ Cordite.

I made .455 brass from both 45AR and 45Colt.
The former by thinning the rims from the back..the latter by crunching the existing rim to thin it as needed in a home made die.
That also increases the dia just a bit which helps using the 45Colt brass as they have a habit of sliding under the extractor sometimes.
I used Green Dot in my MkIV. Fun to shoot. Should drag it out again for a trip to the range,,it's been a while.

It's a reloading situation, but I'd think well worth giving it a try unless it's some sort of investment. Good little write up Kutter. I think 45 auto rim brass is a good option, and I'm pretty sure Unique powder works well and runs through a measure decent. I wouldn't try to track down purpose made dies, as I know standard dies can be mixed and matched to load them. Hope you can get it shooting Doc buzz.

I would think it best to keep it original. I had a Mark VII until Tony Blair decided we could'nt keep and shoot such things back in 1997 when he came to power and forced me and many more to hand such things in. Great to shoot. I was just looking if I still had the dies but do not. All I have are a few lead bullets. Enjoy and fire a few shots for me please. Lagopus.....

Lagopus, That's such a drag that England lost it's rights re handguns. And if I remember right, you are a police officer and they even took your pistols. Disturbing for sure. England needs an NRA. I think we are safe here on gun control for 4 years, at least while President Trump is in office. In terms of the Webley, I did find a box of shells from Reed's Ammunition and Research in Oklahoma City. Salty at $60, but I thought what the heck. The shells are supposedly low pressure or so that's what they told me.

Perhaps a Canadian can explain why these Webley .455's are favored/exempted under their current rigid handgun restrictions. A few years ago, I sold two of these .455 Webleys to Canadians that made special arrangements to pick them via a Seattle FFL dealer.

Well, it is convoluted but basically revolvers of a certain vintage are prescribed antiques. With exception of certain chamberings (and barrel length restrictions) there is no firearms certificate required or import restriction.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/antique-historique-eng.htm
Sounds enviable but unlike in US our pre-1898 center-fire shotguns are not antiques if 10, 12, 16, 20, or 28 ga.

Buzz, the ironic thing is that we do have a National Rifle Association which was formed in 1859 and pre-dates yours by 12 years. Even your Right to Bear Arms comes from English law. Ours comes from what we call Common Law and in this case goes back to Alfred the Great and was defined in legislation in 1765 as 'the right of having and using arms for self preservation and defence'. If that sounds familiar it was probably the inspiration for your 2nd. Amendment of 1791. Oddly it is still a legal obligation for all able bodied Englishmen to practice with a long bow on a weekly basis. We've been around a lot longer than you and longer for the legislators to take away and interfere with those rights. Guard them well as try to take them from you they will.

I could have kept the Webley Mark VII as it was pre 1919 but would have had it on a special section of my Firearms Certificate but not allowed to use it. It misfired a bit on Blair as he hadn't calculated the fact that it is unlawful for Government to confiscate a law abiding citizen's property without compensation. After all, you would think he would have known that being a qualified Barrister of Law. I chose the compensation route for my pistols; the others being post 1919, and got the money for three pistols and used it to buy three rifles. How's that Blair? Oddly, a little like JBL above any pre 1919 pistols that are listed as 'obsolete calibre' have no restrictions whatsoever and kids can buy those and go out and play with them without committing an offence. Basically British guns laws have become a real mess and almost impossible to interpret. Have fun with that Webley. Lagopus.....

Lagaopus; I guess you did get some sort of satisfaction (consolation) for government compensation for your firearm at ?? fair market value?? Of course, the taxpayer, of which you are one, got stuck with the bill for all those guns 'turned in'. I guess the government destroyed them? Sorry! I wish it was different for England. I believe government confiscation of guns from law abiding citizens does very little to nothing to control violent crime, but does a lot to make impotent, their best citizens. In this regard, I'm glad that the liberal faction in America who support more gun control are being kept in check, at least for now.

I too lost my only handgun, a .22 lr smith and Wesson model 17, after the UK handgun ban however it was the Conservative government that followed the recommendations of the Cullen report and introduced the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 that banned centre fire handguns. The new (No 2) Act introduced by the newly elected Labour Party extended the ban to include .22 lr handguns. At that time pistol shooters had few friends in either political party.

Konor, yes but the Cullen enquiry did not recommend a ban. It was Conservative Home Secretary Michael Howard who boasted that they were going to go further than the Lord Cullen enquiry. Seems a waste of public money to commission and enquiry and then ignore it. They weren't going to ban small bore stuff but Blair of course had to go one better. It was a time of the General Election and all political parties were riding on the backs of public outrage at a mass shooting at Dunblane. The pawns in the game were the poor old pistol owners. The gunman was dead and there was no-one else to punish. I'm no fan of Howard or Blair or for that matter most politicians. They are just after keeping their rather well paid jobs. As you know gun crime using pistols has increased by over 300% in Scotland alone in the ten years post ban. Expensive waste of time that was!

Anyway, I should welcome you to your first post. Lots of knowledge here on this site to tap into. Always good to see more members from this side of the big pond.

Buzz, I looked upon it as a Tax rebate. We all made sure that we got a fair deal on compo but it doesn't fully compensate for a loss of freedom. Lagopus.....

Thanks for the welcome lagopus I've enjoyed reading the double gun forum these last few years and have been impressed by the range and depth of knowledge of many of the posters including yourself. Brought up on the Scottish side of the Solway so I enjoy my wildfowling hence the Konor3inch moniker. I miss the times I had in the past with my .22 unfortunately I don't think we'll regain the right to own even rim fire handguns over here. I did have the opportunity to fire my American cousins .45 Wilson combat commander a couple of years back and relished every minute. I think the ban only managed to deprive a lot of people of countless hours enjoyment and now the Scottish government has introduced air gun licensing the trend is set to continue. Similar to your pistol to rifle conversion when I had to licence my Brocock air pistol I also applied and was granted permission for a .222 ,.243 and a .22 lr i.e. a Remington 700 Ruger No1 and a Winchester model 52 browning copy and I have enjoyed those .I guess when government put obstacles in your way it's satisfying to still find ways to follow your sport. All the best K

Lagopus have you the source of your 300 percent increase in crime using pistols in Scotland. The only figures I find quote an almost 80 percent decrease in pistol crime in the five years following the 19997 ban followed by a rise to 2008-2009 which did not exceed the 1997 level followed by a drop which contradicts your figures.

House of Commons Library Briefing Paper Number CBP07672 2nd August 2017
Firearm Crime Statistics Scotland written by Graham Allan and Lukas Audicas
Page 12 Table A4 .Number of offences in which a firearm was involved by type of firearm. Shows a drop in pistol offences from 2006-2007 of 76 to a figure of 43 in 2015-2016

Game is flourishing here in New Scotland where regular deer harvests were in the 55,000 range annually. Last year's was around, I read, 8,000. I mention it to beware imputing causes from numbers.

Back to Webley pistols, centrefire handguns were banned here in Ireland a few years ago (not northern Ireland). I was lucky enough to be able to buy a Webley mk iv in .22lr. All the fun without the hassle of finding ammo.

The BIGS one might do well in the Webley

https://www.jacobeagle.com/bullets

I like his bullets

Tell him MIKE said to call

Mike

Krasnes hardware in San Diego in 1956 sold those big bore Webleys for under 10 bucks. They were stored around the store in nail kegs, u pick one. A gob of 1/2 moon clips came with each purchase. .45 ACP ammo, if you were nice to the right people on base was free. If you got one that pierced primers, just grind a bit off the hammer spur...1917 Smiths and New Service Colts cost a few bucks more..Spanish Astras less....Simpler days...

Bonny, that's one of the odd things about the U.K. Government. They banned pistols in England, Wales and Scotland but not Northern Ireland. Lagopus.....

No, that's not odd at all. The British Government laws in Northern Ireland are way different than elsewhere. No right to a jury trial. Diplock courts still at the discretion of the Crown. Internment without any trial at all still on the books and can be instituted again at any time. Very easy to get a handgun permit if you have the right kind of politics. If or when the British Government brings back a hard border, or indeed any kind of border that negatively affects the Irish things will quickly revert to the old misery and bloodshed. It may seem like democracy in action when a slim majority of people in Wales and England vote to drag the majority of Scots and Northern Irish out of the EU with then but it doesn't seem that way to the Irish or Scots.

When Sharia law sets in, all your problems will go away. What has all this blather to do with Webley pistols????

Brexit ? Best thing that ever happened in the EUSSR. A Completely undemocratic institution, that is currently trying to ban all semi-auto firearms, yes including shotguns, and just yesterday i was informed they want a complete ban on all lead projectiles, including .22lr ammo and shotgun shells !

It started as a good idea with a common market, but transformed into a monster over the years. Being ruled from Germany ? No thanks, They tried that twice in the last century, 1914-18 and again 1939-45, then changed tactics and tried the political route.

Has anyone on this forum any interest in the Webley semi-auto pistols ? Relatively rare i know, but i always found them interesting.

About the only ones we see here are the .32ACP/7.65mm pocket version. An American company, Harrington and Richardson made a very similar pistol in .32/7.65 and .25/6.35mm. I'm not sure if they were made on license from Webley or were different enough to avoid Webley patents or if the patents had expired when they were made.

The big bore versions are very rare here, especially the .38/9mm. I've only seen one of those in my 65 years of looking and a couple of the .455s, one RN, one commercial.

I've always thought the Webley autos felt somewhat awkward in hand, especially compared to a Luger or a "tube-slide" Browning 1910 or 1922.

Has anyone any pictures of the Webley factory in Birmingham ? I was always a fan of webley products, even their air guns were well made and finished, certainly better than most of the mass produced stuff today.

Fun looking

Copy and paste this link

Mike

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=Webley+factory+in+Birmingham+picture&fr=yhs-mozilla-002&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-002&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi1099.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg393%2Fastoness%2FWebley_and_Scott_factory_interior_1910.jpg#id=22&iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deactivated-guns.co.uk%2Fimages%2F38%2520webley%2520lan%2Fwebley-21.jpg&action=close

I owned one of the H&R copies of the Webley .32 semiauto pistol years ago. Trigger pull was horrendously heavy and accuracy was grapefruit sized at 7 yards. I moved it on down the road to a collector.

It was, as I recall, a much more nicely fit and finished piece than the average H&R revolver. As it was one of only 2 .32 semiauto pistols I've ever owned (the other being a post-WWII Czech police sidearm I inadvertently won in a raffle), I can't comment on it in comparison to other similar pistols of its era. It was functional and I guess it would have worked as a self-defense pistol if needed, although even when it was built there were many better choices.