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Jul 28th, 2025
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 911 Likes: 45
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 911 Likes: 45 |
The contest Drew is referring to , I was agreed the Brit's would use Brit guns, ammo and rules. Yanks the same . American trap 1 shot , mounted gun . Brits low gun 2 shots. Fred Gilbert et. al. would have won with live birds too!
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,033 Likes: 1829
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,033 Likes: 1829 |
Regardless the rules of engagement, if both sides agreed to them before the contest began, the writer is still wincing from sour grapes. It's poor sportsmanship to agree to the rules then complain about them when you lose.
This explains the one barrel, two barrel statement a bit better:
"July 6 Sporting Life editorial regarding the match by Will Park
This foreign trip has proven one thing quite conclusively, and that is this – the American gun and ammunition is unsurpassed by the same product of any other country. The skill of the American gunner has also been proven superior to that of the foreigners and it can also be said that we have the largest number of experts in this line of sport on the globe.
The English method of shooting at “clay birds,” as they call the inanimate flying targets, is to throw a rather high flight, follow it well to it’s height, and fire both barrels in rapid succession, trusting, as one might say, to luck. The American style, on the other hand, is careful, deliberate, but with a certain quickness which does not permit the target to get beyond a reasonably fair range. That the American style is superior, or their skill vastly greater, has been shown by the recent matches. It was also shown that the Americans were better prepared for this kind of shooting. The guns were heavier, and handled a larger load of powder and shot, all reaching a point of perfection acquired only through a series of exhaustive tests and continual experiments by the manufacturers of such goods and constant practice by the users of them."
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021 |
Thank You!!! I was completely confused over that statement.
But that is why I have such high regard and respect for the LC Smith.
Whenever Doc Drew posts this excellent information on these old turn of the last century shoots, the LC Smith and Parker are there, taking on and trading blows with the best the English can throw at them or the Irish or the Scottish or the French or Germans.
Sometimes you see a Remington or Lefever but its mostly the LC Smith and Parker getting the job done when the American shooters finally decided to use American built guns and American ammunition.
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 704 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 704 Likes: 1 |
Yeah, yeah...
About this time of year they start showing up at the clubs to 'tune up' for bird/duck season.
The orange vest is the first giveaway, the complete lack of gun manners the next.
We had one guy last year start stuffing shells in his Benelli (3.5" of course) in the parking lot.
Many average Americans seems to think they are descended from a line of natural born shooters and somehow have innate ability that they very much do not.
After breaking maybe half a dozen at skeet, they proudly announce that this is nothing like the shooting they usually do, and that they seldom if ever miss a bird in the field.
We take their money, wish them luck, and invite them back next year.
It's a tradition.
But, yes, once in a while 'old rusty 1100 guy' will show up and demonstrate that he was likely born with that gun in his hands. Such people are rare, but they do exist.
No offense intended. At the Club/place I shoot at I am one of the few that uses a hunting strap vest. Most "shooters" are fat over weight slobs that have trouble fitting their big belly's under the steering wheel of their custom built golf cart they use to haul their guns, soft drinks and snacks. Most have never seen the open praries of the Dakotas/Pheasants or the giant Idaho hillsides for Chukars. Their pre mounts and call for pull are so structured that the thought of a wild bird flushing in front of them unexpectedly would no doubt make them pee their pants. One of the more unexpected happenings would be seeing one of these guys actually walk a round of Sporting Clays. I shot with a group of the suburban Club shooter guys one time. I was ridiculed for being a bird hunter. How cruel to shoot birds. Turns out that guy owned a chain of Diary Queens. I asked him how he thought his chickens were processed that he sold. The tricked out guns with the adjustable combs and crazy looking stocks of the Club shooter is almost comedic. Most would be better off shooting with a single shot Stevens. Talk about gun manners. By and large my experience is that the suburban club shooter is about as uncouth with a gun as they come. I would rather shoot with a hunter any day of the week. Again, no offense intended.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,251 Likes: 425
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,251 Likes: 425 |
No offense intended? Seriously?
I can't measure how much enjoyment others get from this hobby. Certainly one aspect is X's and O's, another, cartridges /bird.
I'm glad that our clubs get some business at this time of year.
It keeps the sport alive.
Come one, come all, We'll help you hit more of what you shoot at.
Near as I can tell, at this moment of our lives, there are only a few devoted hunter/shooter's or shooter hunter's posting on BBS type websites anymore.
It's just the changing technology and aging of the cadre.
If you are shooting at 10K clay birds/year, and another 500 live birds (or more) per annum, you won't have much company on BBS's. But whether anyone believes you or not, you'll know absolutely the significant difference between a clay birds flight, and that of a live animal.
I think some gun writer said that the cost of being a naturally good game shot was constant practice.
Out there doing it best I can.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,775 Likes: 467
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,775 Likes: 467 |
J.A.R. Elliott and Ed Banks used Winchester Repeating Shotguns in the 1901 Match Lefevers were used by champions too  Remington was out of the double business, but Jay Graham was high gun at the 1912 Olympics with a... oh the shock and shame...PUMP   CZ Fred Kimble “The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice.” More wise words from Will K. Park, Editor, Sporting LifeAs the drowning man clings to a straw, so does the shooter love to think that his load or gun may, instead of himself, be responsible for a referee’s “lost.” BTW: turn-of-the-century Live Bird shooters frequently used some form of the low gun "ready" position before calling for the bird. E.D. Fulford in 1897  Brief live-action shooting at the 1912 Stockholm Olympics is here; some essentially pre-mount, others low gun "ready" position. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl...t-ts=1422579428 Olympic rules called for "gun below the elbow" set-up. Ed Banks' comments thereupon: "The conditions of the Olympic competitions at Stockholm are, in the main, those usually adopted in England, there being 15 traps to the five marks, but a point which is of considerable importance, and will need careful attention by the competitors of all nations, is that the “gun below the elbow” position is insisted upon. Game shooters, on first taking up clay bird shooting, invariably decry the “gun at the shoulder” position. If they continue to take part in competitions they end by adopting it, because there is no doubt at all about its advantage when conditions are “known traps” and what might be called the “flushing point” of the bird can be covered."
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,251 Likes: 425
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,251 Likes: 425 |
obtw, It occurred to me that the essential element for a shotgun to feel good to me immediately, is for it to be valued as much as a house.  That seems to be some kind of universality. I would not be surprised if there is a relationship between clay target % killed and game killed. For me, until I was edging up on a certain % on the range, my field improvement lagged. The last 5% in clay target improvement probably added 20% to game harvest. They are correlated, but not linearly. Biggest correlation I believe is at very low skill, and then reappears at very high skill.
Out there doing it best I can.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478 Likes: 16
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478 Likes: 16 |
Regardless the rules of engagement, if both sides agreed to them before the contest began, the writer is still wincing from sour grapes. It's poor sportsmanship to agree to the rules then complain about them when you lose.
This explains the one barrel, two barrel statement a bit better:
"July 6 Sporting Life editorial regarding the match by Will Park
This foreign trip has proven one thing quite conclusively, and that is this – the American gun and ammunition is unsurpassed by the same product of any other country. The skill of the American gunner has also been proven superior to that of the foreigners and it can also be said that we have the largest number of experts in this line of sport on the globe.
The English method of shooting at “clay birds,” as they call the inanimate flying targets, is to throw a rather high flight, follow it well to it’s height, and fire both barrels in rapid succession, trusting, as one might say, to luck. The American style, on the other hand, is careful, deliberate, but with a certain quickness which does not permit the target to get beyond a reasonably fair range. That the American style is superior, or their skill vastly greater, has been shown by the recent matches. It was also shown that the Americans were better prepared for this kind of shooting. The guns were heavier, and handled a larger load of powder and shot, all reaching a point of perfection acquired only through a series of exhaustive tests and continual experiments by the manufacturers of such goods and constant practice by the users of them."
SRH Sounds like a good bit of patriotic flag waving to me. I wonder if the Brits or Italians would agree/
C Man
Life is short
Quit your job.
Turn off the TV.
Go outside and play.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,033 Likes: 1829
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,033 Likes: 1829 |
Regardless the rules of engagement, if both sides agreed to them before the contest began, the writer is still wincing from sour grapes. It's poor sportsmanship to agree to the rules then complain about them when you lose.
This explains the one barrel, two barrel statement a bit better:
"July 6 Sporting Life editorial regarding the match by Will Park
This foreign trip has proven one thing quite conclusively, and that is this – the American gun and ammunition is unsurpassed by the same product of any other country. The skill of the American gunner has also been proven superior to that of the foreigners and it can also be said that we have the largest number of experts in this line of sport on the globe.
The English method of shooting at “clay birds,” as they call the inanimate flying targets, is to throw a rather high flight, follow it well to it’s height, and fire both barrels in rapid succession, trusting, as one might say, to luck. The American style, on the other hand, is careful, deliberate, but with a certain quickness which does not permit the target to get beyond a reasonably fair range. That the American style is superior, or their skill vastly greater, has been shown by the recent matches. It was also shown that the Americans were better prepared for this kind of shooting. The guns were heavier, and handled a larger load of powder and shot, all reaching a point of perfection acquired only through a series of exhaustive tests and continual experiments by the manufacturers of such goods and constant practice by the users of them."
SRH Sounds like a good bit of patriotic flag waving to me. I wonder if the Brits or Italians would agree/ True that, but would you not agree that flag waving has more credence when you're the clear winner? We were. Nothing wrong with a bit of flag waving, especially when the losers are sore losers. The medalist's home country's flag is displayed with the winner on the podium at many events, including the Olympics. SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,110 Likes: 79
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,110 Likes: 79 |
My comments were about the unpracticed field shot and those with an inflated sense of their skill and knowledge level.
It matters not to me which equipment you select, what you choose to shoot at, or how you are attired.
A safe and proficient hunter is as obvious at the clay target ranges as is his opposite number. I shot with two such fellows today, they did very well indeed and were a pleasure to shoot with.
We don't mind explaining range rules to new shooters, it's rather expected that we will have to even though the simple act of watching a line of skeet or trap before actually signing up to shoot would seem to tell a person most of what they need to know.
My beef is with those who don't observe, who don't ask, and who can't read the ugly signs we are required to post for just such people. Like it or not, it's the once a year shooter we have to keep an eye on.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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