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2 members (Jtplumb, 1 invisible),
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guests, and
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Key:
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Forums10
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Most Online32,084
Jun 14th, 2026
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 534 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 534 Likes: 23 |
Are/were there any American mfg'd Self or Assisted Opening actions? I think so. John  P_20170819_110255 by John Eurom, on Flickr
Last edited by John E; 08/20/17 02:00 PM.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,646 Likes: 346
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,646 Likes: 346 |
So, who was the manufacturer of this gun?
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,961 Likes: 10
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,961 Likes: 10 |
The WW 21 makes a small attempt and the RBL has that option. I bet there are others.
bill
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,418 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,418 Likes: 2 |
you ever open a ruger red label....falls open like it was never meant to be closed..... 
gunut
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,608 Likes: 425
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,608 Likes: 425 |
John, interesting shotgun. Relatively high finish. Give us more info.
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 534 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 534 Likes: 23 |
The gun is a Crescent Triumph, mfg'd 1895-1898. It is written that fewer than 750 were produced. This one is #762. The Triumph was based on patents issued to William Beesley and held by Charles Lancaster.  pix672236289 by John Eurom, on Flickr With the gun in the fired position, push top lever to the right. Barrels fall full open of their own weight. It sounds like the sears resetting on the hammers as it opens. Effort to close action is in the last third of closing and is not great as the main springs are compressed.  pix350433410 by John Eurom, on Flickr I can now check off another of the early American SxS models on my list. John
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Posts: 7,681 Likes: 904
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,681 Likes: 904 |
Thank you for the education.....I had no idea.
Steve
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,405
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,405 |
Interesting that the ad does not specifically state that it is self opening. However it beats around the point by saying that the gun opens and cocks easily.
B.Dudley
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Posts: 3,469 Likes: 519
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,469 Likes: 519 |
You'll have to explain a little further for me.
Anyone have the Lancaster self opening boxlock patent drawings available?
I can see the RBL w/ self opening option as an American made self opener.
My requirement would be that the gun need not be fired to spring open when laying on it's side. It sounds like this one does that.
Out there doing it best I can.
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 534 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 534 Likes: 23 |
Drew,
There are several here that have shared their research and passion for doubles freely with the members of this forum. I wish to say Thank You to Drew, Daryl, Dave and Tom for all they have done in nurturing my illness. I am not sure if my Wife feels the same way. Someday I hope I have as much to share.
Thank you all,
John
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Joined: Feb 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,646 Likes: 346 |
The long frame European looking gun in the photograph shows no similarity to the gun in the Sears ad except the name.
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 534 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 534 Likes: 23 |
You'll have to explain a little further for me.
Anyone have the Lancaster self opening boxlock patent drawings available?
I can see the RBL w/ self opening option as an American made self opener.
My requirement would be that the gun need not be fired to spring open when laying on it's side. It sounds like this one does that.
CZ, I believe Drew provided the patent in the first paragraph of his post ; http://www.google.com/patents?id=vAxdAAA...p;q&f=falseI just held it on its side, cocked. Push top lever. Gun springs open. John
Last edited by John E; 08/20/17 07:40 PM.
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Posts: 534 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 534 Likes: 23 |
The long frame European looking gun in the photograph shows no similarity to the gun in the Sears ad except the name. True eightbore, But the Sears ad of "the coming gun" is just that, ad copy. The gun is very real and is a Crescent Triumph. There is probably a lot yet to discover. Hopefully what is put into print now will be regarding the guns themselves and not so much about speculation from 100 yr old advertising. Not saying the ad copy is worthless, but I have seen guns in the catalogs with the top levers headed left. John
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I should have read more closely.
You've found a very rare bird. Congratulations!
Those kickers are a dead giveaway for the Lancaster patent. I should have realized their purpose when I looked at the ejector rod.
She's a fine one. A reward for either uncanny luck, or endless hard work. Though one always seems to follow the other.
Out there doing it best I can.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,646 Likes: 346
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,646 Likes: 346 |
Something to look for at the gun shows where we have been ignoring Crescent shotguns all our lives.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,469 Likes: 519
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,469 Likes: 519 |
I haven't been ignoring them, but it's rare to find one worth owning anymore.
Perhaps not the Triumph though?
Out there doing it best I can.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 735 Likes: 178
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 735 Likes: 178 |
I have looked at several dbls with the Holland self opening spring, such as used on the RBL. None that I have looked at spring open if both barrels are fired. A friend recently bought an older Garbi with this spring and he thought it wasn't working properly because if both barrels are fired it does not spring open. From my experience that is normal.
This ain't a dress rehearsal , Don't Let the Old Man IN
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,469 Likes: 519 |
Would anyone ever have thought that we'd EVER be discussing Holland and Holland "Assisted" opener's, Lancaster patent "Self Opener's" and Crescent's, in the same thread, let alone in the same sentence?  For me, it's why I find these contraptions so interesting. Where's Mike Baines of Derbyshire? He's probably got 6 of their first cousins in his safe!
Last edited by ClapperZapper; 08/21/17 10:30 AM.
Out there doing it best I can.
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Posts: 6,608 Likes: 425
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,608 Likes: 425 |
A close look at Figure 34040 in the Sears ad shows the following details that occur in John's gun.
Name is the same.
Patent date is the same.
Self opening rods in the bar are the same.
Top rib extension is the same.
Illustration is probably better detailed than many others.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,391 Likes: 715
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,391 Likes: 715 |
"F. Beesley patents 425 & 14488 of 1884 and H.A.A. Thorns patent of 7242 of 1894"
Regarding Lancasters, these patents are unique in that two different guns can be made using this design...a sidelock and a "body action". The body action looks like a A&D type boxlock, but it's not...its mechanism is entirely different from the a&d.
I'd like to see the inside works on this Crecent/Triumph and see how it really compares to the Beesely/Thorn patent. The compressors on the action flats look nothing like the compressors on a Lancaster, and the barrels are also lacking the compressor bar fitted through the lumps.
This action actually, to my eyes anyway, closer resembles the Smtih easy opener used on Churchills, Rossons, etc.
Dustin
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 534 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 534 Likes: 23 |
"F. Beesley patents 425 & 14488 of 1884 and H.A.A. Thorns patent of 7242 of 1894"
Regarding Lancasters, these patents are unique in that two different guns can be made using this design...a sidelock and a "body action". The body action looks like a A&D type boxlock, but it's not...its mechanism is entirely different from the a&d.
I'd like to see the inside works on this Crecent/Triumph and see how it really compares to the Beesely/Thorn patent. The compressors on the action flats look nothing like the compressors on a Lancaster, and the barrels are also lacking the compressor bar fitted through the lumps.
This action actually, to my eyes anyway, closer resembles the Smtih easy opener used on Churchills, Rossons, etc.
Dustin
Dustin, I believe Beesley patent 425 and his US patent 34040 are the same. https://www.google.com/patents/US320040#v=onepage&q&f=false The pin/screw locations in the patent drawings match the frame screws in the Crescent. The only variance I see is the omission of #14 - crossbar and the pivot levers #13 are extended and acted on by the barrel flats. In doing so the frame cut is reduced to a window for the pivot levers #13 which should make for a stronger frame than the Lancaster design. A variety of self and assisted openers are covered here: https://shotguncollector.com/category/in-english/John
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Posts: 2,391 Likes: 715
Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Posts: 2,391 Likes: 715 |
I'd like to see the gun broken down to the bits. If you have the KSA's to do so...that would be awesome! Tell me, does the Crecent/Triumph have a block safety (type of intercepting sear)? What is really like to see is your guns mainspring. It's a fascinating gun John, and thanks for posting about it. I have never seen one and to be honest never knew something like this was being built in the US.
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Posts: 534 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 534 Likes: 23 |
Dustin,
I do plan to take it down, but it may be a while. I will post pictures when it happens.
John
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Joined: Aug 2012
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Boxlock
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Boxlock
Joined: Aug 2012
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The British test to see if a gun is built on a self-opening action is to turn the gun upside down and open the top lever. If the gun opens vertically and stays open, it is a self opener.
Otherwise the gun is an assisted opener. Thus many who claim they make "self-opening action" are mistaken.
But in the heat of shooting a true assisted opener is a pretty good thing.
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 28
Boxlock
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Boxlock
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 28 |
Interesting that the ad does not specifically state that it is self opening. However it beats around the point by saying that the gun opens and cocks easily. The original Beesley/Purdey design was introduced and advertised as "Purdey's Rebounding Lock Hammerless Gun." At this time we do not know when the term self-opener was applied to the Purdey sxs. We do know, if I recall the late great Don Masters, that Purdeys complained to Robert Churchill when he claimed the Premier was a "self-opening" gun and he then relented and dubbed the two Premier designs and the Hercules were "assisted opening." I can't recall the date.
Last edited by Niemann; 06/16/18 11:22 AM.
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![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/NrDaZrQl.jpg)
