doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com I need a primer on Sauer (Merkel, etc.)

A couple of years ago I bought a Russian IZH-54, which I learned was essentially a transplanted Communist Sauer. I shoot the gun well and like the style. That got me curious about Sauers so I picked up a 1960 East German Sauer from Simpson Ltd ($375 shipped with nice bluing, some case hardening and a repaired stock). Shot it for the first time this weekend. Really liked the gun. It seems to fit me well. I like the weight and style.

Now I want to learn more about Sauer shotguns -- and other, similar Germanic guns. I gather searching this forum and Shotgun World that the pre-war guns are preferred and that the quality is higher. Aside from general, buy a pre-war gun advice, what do I need to know about Sauers. Also, how does Merkel fit in. The internet chatter suggests that during the post-war era the Merkels, Sauers and Simpsons were all coming out of the same factory and were essentially equal guns. Is that true?

So, what years Sauers/Merkels should I be looking at if I want to add another one to the stable? Is there a Golden era? What about the different models? Within the East German years, are some better than others? When did quality drop/improves, etc.

Also, what about the modern era? Should I also look at Sauers/Merkels made after the wall came down?

Is there an online source that traces the history and development of these guns? Alternatively, are there any recommended books.

If it matters, I'm a skeet, sporting clays, 5-stand shooter but I like side by sides. I'm primarily a 12-gauge shooter.

In short, school me on German doubles.

A good starting point is - J. P. Sauer & Sohn: Suhl Waffenstadt by Jim Cate (2008).

If you know where this book can be purchased , please advise. I have been looking for a copy for three years!
Best Regards,
JBP

Amazon has a used copy for for $325!

Canvasback,
Join the German Gun Collectors Assn. Members get a 10% discount on their books, etc. You won't have to buy that many from the fairly extensive list to recover some or all of the membership dues.
Mike

One of the points made by several of the folks over on the German Collector's Board is that the post-war guns were made by the same craftsmen that made the pre-war ones. They assert that the quality is essentially the same, once the Russians provided appropriate quality steel.

Post-war production appears to have been centered on Field Grade guns, made for export as a source of Hard Currency. There appears to have been quite a bit of consolidation under the Commies, with several well known pre-war names being made under the same roof, and the ressurection of names like Simson, formerly a very large concern before being taken over by the Nazis (the Simson family was Jewish) and going through a couple of name changes by war's end. Also, during post war production there was creation of the Ernst Thalmann Werks, named after the pre-war leader of the German Commies, which produced quite a few guns, many of which are available at Simpson Ltd.

Considering the drop in Simpson prices over the last few years, (I estimate between $100-$200 per gun) IMHO German Field Grade guns appear to be a great value, (although the Spanish guns are selling for even less, but let's avoid that Kettle of Worms right now) they'd make great starter doubles for kids, grandkids or other friends and relatives.

Regards
Ken

I'm a diehard bottom feeder and have a safe full of double shotguns, all purchased for mere pittance amounts ($500, give or take). Included among those are the previously mentions IZH-54, a Sterlingworth, a Miroku, a couple of British BSA guns, a Husqvarna, a Sears/AYA 100, etc. I must say I'm quite impressed by the quality of the Sauer I just got. The Simpson LTD offerings have been picked over but I'll definitely keep my eyes out for another batch and be ready to pounce when they show.

Mike, I have been mulling it over for a while. Inertia. But the reasons to join are starting to be compelling. Why, a 10% discount on this book would be half my annual membership fee! LOL

I was quite pleased to see the link Ken Georgi provided to the assembly of Lindner info into one volume. And as time passes, I find myself more and more drawn to the products of a smaller and smaller number of gun making areas....Philadelphia, St Etienne, Suhl and Prague. I would say membership is in my near future.

James

Blade...try this: http://www.757arms.com/

Very cool! Thanks.

Sauers were being produced on both sides of the Iron Curtain after WWII. Sauer moved to Eckernforde in West Germany. But Sauers were also being produced in the above-mentioned Thalmann Werks, but for at least part of the time, they were called Fortunas.

During the Iron Curtain period, the US wasn't a very good market for Commie guns because of a very high tariff. The West German Sauers, imported by Stoeger, sold pretty well. Also, quite a few German guns were imported before the war . . . and a surprising number made it home in the duffel bags of GI's coming home from the war. Since the Wall came down and Germany reunified, the market is kinder to used Sauers, Merkels, and Simsons. And while you'll find nice ones, you do have to watch out for those that have been ridden hard and put away wet. They're all solid guns to start with, but there are a lot of victims of serious abuse to watch out for.

The basic sxs design used by the German Big 3 (Sauer/Merkel/Simson) is very much the same. And most other German doubles follow the same pattern. In particular, the ones that weren't made for export are usually fitted with a Greener crossbolt, have double triggers, usually a pistol grip of some sort, sling swivels, and a cheekpiece.

One significant point was the use of the Kerner-Anson action design. One problem with the regular A&D action was that if it was struck hard on the butt it could go off. Since Fritz liked to walk around with his gun slung, a slip when going down a muddy German mountain could easily result in him blowing his own head off. The Brits came up with intercepting safety sears, but the Krauts waited until the patent protection wore off, then moved the sear fulcrum from the bottom rear to the top rear of the receiver. Much safer. Hence the Kerner-Anson. (nod to Raimey's knowledge)

Axel E. on the subject:

"See the screw at the lower rear of the action body? This is the fulcrum of the original design Anson & Deeley sear. It is in the bottom of the action body and engages a detent in the tumbler from below, close to the tumbler fulcrum. During the 1920s the Suhl gunmakers almost universally adopted E.Kerner's modification of the A&D lockwork. Kerner relocated the sears to the top/rear of the action. They turn on a screw located at the top rear of the action and engage a detent on the top of the tumblers, removed as far as possible from the hammer fulcrum. This arrangement vastly improved the leverage. As much less mainspring pressure rested on the sear detent, Kerner's top sears allow lighter and at the same time safer trigger releases. Secondary safety sears are unnecessary with Kerner's sear arrangement. "

Regards
Ken

a good way to learn about guns is to read ads for guns for sale on the net...good descriptions and images are very educational...and when you have questions, ask them here...where you will most likely find answers...

My CA 1901 J P Sauer & Sons / V L & D Knockabout sidelock has vertical sears. The pivot is very close to the middle (haven't actually measured the length of the two arms). The notch in the outer periphery of the hammer is engaged by the upper end of the sear. The front face of the trigger blade pushes forward on the lower end to release the sear. Seems like a very well thought out design to me & would which not be prone to "Jar-Offs".
My Lefevers also sears which engage the outer periphery of the hammer, as far as possible from the pivot. This seems far better than having the sear engage near the pivot where force is greatest upon the sear point.

Here is the vertical sear, plus intercepting sear on a Sauer from about 1890. A marvel of engineering.

Before cleaning



After cleaning