doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Too fast for me.

I was looking at shells yesterday and noted the Winchester Dove loads were 1 ounce loads being pushed at 1350fps. Unless dove have started growing Kevlar feathers that's just so much over kill. I killed more early season Dove with ammo going 1100-1150 fps that anything but never missed a bird and thought if only I had 1350-1400 fps shells I'd be better off. And even 1 once loads will be more than a decent amount of recoil going that fast.

Don't know if they push them that fast to be sure of working semi automatics or they consider that higher speed will be a marketing advantage. But it for sure is not required to give enough penetration. This faster is better myth, just bugs me.

Recent practice on clay targets is much more important to me than equipment or super express ammo. When I had Dove fields on the farm everyone had to shoot a few clay targets behind the equipment shed. That made sure their gun was working properly and gave them a chance to shoot several going away targets and half a dozen crossing targets to get the rust off their swing. Plus more than a few figured out they had their full choke tubes in their guns and could change them right there. Kind of funny watching them borrow a more open choke tube from another shooter.

There's dead, dead-enough, and Super-dead.

It's obvious by what you see at impact,that faster pellets hit harder.

Doesn't make a bird more dead though.

Bolluxes everything in an old gun up as well.

I like "dead-enough" myself.

Hmm, gonna be missing in front now instead of behind.
O.M

You're just too old school. Like rifle and pistol shooters, shotgun shooters aren't far behind. Everything is about velocity, to most of these shooters. The low to moderate velocity shooters in any discipline are few and far between. It's been that way for a very long time. All of the ammunition makers were pimping HV shotgun loads for damn near a century now and they're obviously still doing it.

Steel shot has had some influence on these speeds. Because of the lighter weight per pellet for any given size the manufactures ramped up velocity to compensate. You can now buy steel loads in excess of 1700fps.

Combine this and Americans love for anything magnum along with a good marketing hook. We now have expensive super speed magnum doves loads.

What happened to the good old days when you waited for the ammo sales the last two weeks of August when dove loads would go on sale for under $2.00 a box. I guess I'm showing my age. I bought a lot of the under $2.00 stuff at Target back in the day.

I shot competitive International Skeet for years and never subscribed to the need for 1350 fps loads. I always loaded my shells to 1200 and learned to "compensate" for the extra inch or two of lead that my loads required.

My go to load for Sporting Clays is 1oz/1350 FPS. (7.5 or 8's)
Love 'em and they're cheap. They do say Dove Loads on the box and no doubt they would make short work of a Dove.

Ky Jon, I hardly ever shoot anything more than 1150-1200 and mostly closer to the 1150-1160 area. Dead is dead and broken is broken I have shot some of the 1350 stuff and the only difference is a headache when I finish.

I fail to see a problem.

Winchester 'Super Target' runs one ounce at 1180.

Academy Sports will deliver them to your door for $5.49/box.

Take a Sharpie, cross out the 'Target' on the box, and make it say 'Dove'.

Done.

WalMart (bad word) has Federal Gold Medals on sale at $5 per box. Great shells at a great price, but still not necessarily the thing for old guns.

Most of the big box promo 1 oz 12's are made to cycle an A5. Kick like a mule

bill

My go to load is an Estate loading. 2 3/4", 1145 fps, 1 1/8 oz., #8 or 7 1/2 (according to distance), with "extra hard shot" (their wording). I used to shoot the faster stuff, but found it was useless. I bought 20 flats of these last year for $51.00/flat delivered, and have shot over half of them. My scores for the year are the highest they have ever been. I am averaging over 90% at sporting, so far.

There is no doubt that these loads would hammer doves unmercifully. However, an ounce and an eighth of shot is totally unnecessary for doves, and I wouldn't use them for that. I'd consider it unsporting.

SRH

I'd very much like to see that Estate load in 5's or 6's.

Interesting these discussions.

The point is often made that extra launch velocity scrubs off pretty quickly due to the drag increasing as velocity squared.

We recently in another thread worked out that the kinetic energy difference of a 7 1/2 lead pellet at 40 yards showed a 20% increase at 1330 fps launch vs. 1135 fps launch.

1 ounce payload recoil energy in a 7 pound gun would be 23.5 vs. 17.7.

Comfortable vs. pretty annoying.

Seems an easy decision.

I just bought 2 flats of those Walmart $5/ box 1-oz shells. I then proceeded to shoot one flat in about 3 hours at the Back Woods quail club SC course. I must say that my teeth were chattering and my zygomatic arch was aching afterward. It's back to 1100fps RST's for me on Labor Day.

One solution is switch to 16ga were standard load is 1oz @ 1180fps. Being for Ole' Fart gauge ammo manufacturers don't seem to offer high velocity lead loads.

Solution? That implies there is a problem, which there isn't. Nobody said lower velocity loads were not available. They are. The only issue is whether or not a man chooses to use them, or believe the BS about high velocity.

SRH

Easy enough to find 1 1/8 oz 12ga loads at moderate velocity--which I use on occasion when I shoot trap (which I shoot only very occasionally) and for stuff like the pigeon ring at the Great Northern.

Dave, if you want a load like that with larger shot for hunting pheasants, there's a good one using Fed Gold Medal hull, Fed primer, Fed 12S3 wad, and Unique. More than just that one, IIRC, if you go to the Alliant Powder Guide. You do have to do some looking to find something like that in a factory load with shot any larger than 7.5.

Larry, I was just looking at those recipes on the Alliant site last night after mulling over this thread and also recollecting our prior conversations on these Gold Medal/Unique loads. I have all the components, so that's on this month's to-do list. I picked up a 2nd 12 ga. Merkel 200E, and while it's not as light as the prewar gun I have, it's still only an ounce over 6 1/2 pounds and a 1 1/8 pz load at 1200 fps is as hard as I want to push it.

We used to have annual contact with the owner of Olympia Cartridges at the NWTF Turkey Shoot at The Meadows, which was held there in August of each year. He once custom loaded us a goodly quantity of #4s at about 1100 fps. Those were the deadliest long range (and short, obviously) crow loads I ever saw. We've still got a few of them left I think, but as you say, there's nothing on the market that I am aware of, with larger shot, under about 1250 fps.

SRH

And that is sad.

Given the loads some of these yokels are using to shoot doves; enough shot and powder to bring down a pterodactyl. They must really hate those doves.

I am nearly always "standing alone" in the low velocity/lower shot weight camp when hunting or shooting clays with my buds. I don't believe 1 1/8 oz. of shot is necessary to break clay birds, either. But I use these Estate loads because they are so slow, the recoil is low, they are relatively cheap, and they pattern great.

In talking with my fellow dove shooters, while we're standing around the trucks discussing the more important things in life ............. such as guns, loads and where to use them, the subject of best loads for doves often comes up. Given my gentle, but piercing way of debating such things I occasionally will ask what they think was the ideal lead shot charge for big ducks, back in our salad days. They will almost always reply with 1 1/4 to 1 3/8 oz. I then propose the question ............. "Given that a mature mallard weighs about 2 -3 lbs., and 1 3/8 oz. of lead will deck him, why do you feel like 1 1/8 oz. of lead is necessary to kill a dove that weighs 4 - 6 ounces?"

The responses are either blank stares or sheepish looks, with no answer. One fellow might say something like "I just think it kills 'em better, or deader". I then ask them to explain why I seem to be able to hold my own with them shooting 1/2 oz. to 7/8 oz. loads. No answers, usually.

Then I am reminded of my Dad's old cliche that "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".

SRH

http://www.rstshells.com/store/p/156-12-...z-Load-Box.aspx

1-1/16, #6 @ 1150fps. #5's would be nice though.

John

The higher velocity loads for dove are advertising marketing tactics. Attacking egos with faster is better. Not so... As I mentioned before, my go to loads are AA, or Federal Top Gun Target loads for most of my bird hunting. (1150 1200fps give or take) is more than enough killing power for Grouse, woodcock, dove, quail, and crows. Pheasants early season, I use AA super handy cap 7 1/2 shot 1 1/8oz.
This works for me. And yes I have bought the fast stuff with same results except Ended up with a bruised shoulder.

You are absolutely right, JohnE. I often overlook RST loadings, as the price of them is just too high for me. I do duplicate them with handholds, however.

Thanks for catching that.

SRH

Burrard reported on a line of low velocity loads developed by the British Wildfowlers Assoc many years ago which they used with great success. The object was to be able to use a heavier load of the larger shot from a comparatively light weight gun for the shot load. For the ordinary 2�" game gun the load was a 2 3/4 DE with 1� oz of shot, which could be fired comfortably from the average weight game gun. Smallest shot size recommended for this load was British #4 or the equivalent of our #5. Smaller size shot at these reduced velocities would not have adequate penetration on the larger size birds they were developed for. This game gun load was particularly good for high pheasant while most wildfowlers used a still heavier load from a heavier gun.
Loads of #7� or #8 @ 1100 to 1150 fps are perfectly adequate for the smaller birds a normal ranges. These loads were however designed to be used a maximum ranges for larger birds. Don't forget a 4 to 6 oz dove can fly untouched through a pattern which would put several hits on a 2 to 3 lb Mallard.
Splitting the middle in weight for both categories a 2� lb Mallard has about 7 times the body ares of a 5 oz dove.
effective range of a shotgun is always determined by the best balance for the game to be shot of adequate penetration & adequate pattern density to insure several hits on the bird. Yeah I am fully aware we've all made some kills we could only find one pellet hit on, but how many more one pellet hit birds fly off that show no sign of being hit at all.

Some Is Good

More Is Better

Too Much Is Never Enough


The American Way!

I haven't ever forgotten that, Miller. I have made the statement on this board several times that density kills, up to a point of course. The pellets have to retain enough energy at the distance. One of the main reasons for going with smaller pellets for small birds is to increase that density.

By the way, every load I shoot at a dove, whether 1/2 oz. out of a .410 or 7/8 oz. out of a 20, has density that doves cannot fly through. This is accomplished, of course, by using adequate choke, patterning your hunting loads, and only taking shots that are within the range of those good patterns.

Thanks for your comments. As always they are pertinent and accurate, and appreciated.

SRH

Fortunately, a one ounce 1150 fps load is a very easy task for a handloader. There are any number of combinations to choose from.

Most of my loading these days is to make stuff I can't buy.

I do miss the old Federal Champion 2 hull. There is somehing special about your own home rolled field load in a paper hull. The current papers are a shadow of their former glory.

I swear Federal perfumed their powder too...

Federal has just come out with a load that may interest some, although I'd prefer even less velocity: Federal Premium Hi-Bird. The 1 1/4 oz offering is the old standard Super-X recipe: 1330 fps. The 1 1/8 is 1275 fps, available in #6 shot. $10.95/box, which is cheaper than the ridiculously fast "premium" pheasant loads by a good bit . . . and 200+ fps slower. Not anything I'd want to shoot at targets (also available in 7.5 and 8), especially since I shoot relatively light guns. But it would be a decent pheasnt load, and better than most of what's available unless you go with RST.

Walmart had some blue-gray boxed Federal 1&1/4oz #6 loads listed as 1220fps on the box. Not sure how good they're because I only shoot 16ga now standard fare being 1oz at 1165fps pretty much regardless who made them Winchester, Federal, or Remington. The odd thing about 16ga loads is that extra 1/4oz lead cost nearly twice as much money.

Take a look at Polywad - Polymag 30X and 60X loadings:

http://www.polywad.com/polymag.html

Pressure is stated @ 8400psi. I bet recoil is notable.

John