doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Patent use number

Good day gentlemen! I have been Googling for a long time now and still amake not finding out what the patent use stamp on my Holland is- perhaps one of you knows or could point me in the right direction? The stamp is C.W.L on top, 61 in the middle, and Patent underneath. The double was finished in 1866, and is a Jones under leaver. It was built as a center fire as the Holland record book indicates. Any thoughts?

Haven't looked up the middle initial, but Lancaster [Charles] was around then and I seem to remember had a Holland connection. What is the serial no. of your Holland ? Is it marked Holland and Holland , H Holland, or ??

C.W.L. would be Charles William Lancaster. All I can find on Lancaster for a possible is Patent 969 of 5th. April 1865 and it is just described as 'Extractor for sliding breech block'. Any references to that patent? Lagopus.....

Daryl,it's a H. Holland, number 1217.

Lago, any ideas on what a sliding breach block would be? The gun has the standard standing breach, nothing sliding that I can see. But I probably just don't understand what it's describing

The patent is described as for a bolt action but does seem applicable to the standing breech.

A picture of your gun, or maybe several would help. Charles W. Lancaster had several patents in the 1860s, the last of which was the 3642 of 1867 for an oval bore, but that does not seem to fit your gun. Several extractor patents were done earlier.

[img]http://H. Holland https://imgur.com/a/4I1m4[/img]

Let's see if this works, I'm new to Imgur

The barrels are choked, are stamped under the 1886 proofs I believe, and are engraved with H. Holland on the ribs. Also a bit of a mystery as Holland has no record of it coming back to the factory

The hammers are reminiscent of the Lancaster Base Fire action for their base fire cartridges which were early centrefire jobs. Just a possibility; and then converted to standard centrefire which is easy enough. I don't know what others think of that possibility? Lagopus.....

I think Lagopus is correct. The patent use number is a very early one and the barrels are maybe 20 years later and probably converted by other than the Maker, who at the time of conversion would have been Holland and Holland.

If it helps, the factory letter from Holland and Holland states "a new central fire...." would the striker area on the breach face have any signs of being converted? I'm not familiar with the base fire system

The serial number might be early enough to have been originally a muzzle loader or a pinfire. Who knows without some close inspection ?

H. Holland letter https://imgur.com/gallery/Y4LYI

Here is the factory letter. "Use of Patent 61"- would this indicate the patent number or the number of use?

My Patent Index shows no Patent 61 for Charles W. Lancaster. Those numbers are typically Use Numbers and I'd guess that is what your 61 is. The factory record shows it to be an original centerfire. A friend has an H. Holland in the 500 serial range. No records exist for it, but it is a conversion to centerfire. From what other system, is not obvious.

Thanks Daryl! The plot thickens as it were... I thought we might have been onto something with the base fire and the the subsequently replaced barrels. Does your patent index give any description for Lancaster's other patents that might apply? Thanks again for all the replys!

Without seeing pics of the gun's internals with the barrels at open and then off, it's hard to guess what is inside your gun. Could be the extractor, but that's only a guess.

I have just noticed you posted three pictures of the Holland. The second and third show a bit more detail. On the receiver flats photo I see two rounded holes machined on either side of the bar cut out. [for lack of a better term] Looking at the barrel lumps, I can see no reason for the afore mentioned cut outs. Do you understand this ?

Secondly, in the bar cutout to our right appears a small somewhat rounded piece that appears to fit into the barrel lump and extend farther to the right. Is this part of the extractor ?

I have seen similar cut outs on A. Henry rifles and always assumed the were put there to reduce weight. I could certainly be mistaken though.
Steve

H.Holland https://imgur.com/gallery/Kf884

Daryl, here are a number of additional pictures, including the extractor when up. Any more thoughts?

I thought those large rounded cut outs on the action flats were for the Jones underlever mechanism, but I'm not sure how they are used

Clay, I just cannot make out for sure the tie between the Charles W Lancaster patent 969 of 1865 and your gun. The patent drawing is not detailed to well in my illustration of the patent. For sure it is for an extractor and it could be your gun uses this patent. If I had to say yes or no, I would say yes.

As to the rounded cut outs, I see no mechanical use for them. SKB may be correct that it is a weight reducer, but it seems odd and a lot of effort on a relatively heavy gun.

If you wish to see the patent, I can email you a copy. My email is in my profile.

Later-------I sent the patent description to you email.