doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Screws pointing north in best guns..

How big of a sin is it that a new best gun would have a screw that wasn't lined so that the slot points North? If after hardening and engraving metal properties changed and the screw no more pointed North, should the maker have replaced it before delivery, or is it considered acceptable?

That would bug the chit out of me.

At least it is NOT buggered. Saw a nice 16 Parker CHE recently- screws were buggered beyond belief. If this were my gun, and I could consistently kill birds with it, I'd leave it "as is"--

I would send the photo to whom ever this "Best" cam from All quAlity best manufactured guns screws should never be not pointing "N" see what they say. May I ask who the manufacturer is?
Rich

First thing that popped into my head was whoever put it together got it tight but was too scared to go the extra few degrees in case they buggered the slot
Either that or their finisher was on holiday that week.

Here it is, click "over and under shotgun details A"

http://www.hartmannandweiss.com/en/shotguns.html

I have seen discussions questioning their reputation as the finest guns in the world, along with pictures of similar finish imperfections, and when I looked I found this along with other similar issues. For example this new pair has mismatched tear drops, and if you look at the comments below the pictures someone spotted them and the late Simon Clode acknowledges it

https://www.theexplora.com/a-pair-of-hartmann-weiss-20g-sidelocks-engraved-by-a-m-j-p-brown/

I don't believe Hartmann and Weiss are of higher quality than Purdey or Boss as the legend goes.

Now that we don't know whether or not the gun was delivered with a misaligned screw I would give H & W the benefit of the doubt that it got looked after.

Since it's a website showcase gun, it may not be important if it ever was delivered, only that it is representative. I wonder if it's just an oops, and a courtesy email would prompt them to relook at it and decide whether to leave the picture up or not. Maybe, they think it's okay like that.

Wouldn't say it's impossible, although I find it highly unlikely since posting the photo on the official site indicates that they are happy presenting it to the world in this state, hence to any potential client.

Exactly. It's about their standards. I don't believe a head finisher or a factory manager at Boss, Purdey, or Holland & Holland would let such a gun pass final inspection. I've seen misaligned screws on guns by the London three, but these were used and pre-owned guns that would've been taken apart and serviced by gunsmiths during their lifetime.

I once had a respected local gunsmith do a strip and clean on one of my sidelocks. When the gun came back with two screws not timed properly, I asked that it be reassembled again. Came back perfect.
Karl

This is where new world can actually help old world.

Screws are just fasteners. It's a helical inclined plane to hold stuff to other stuff.

These gun screws with narrow hand cut slots look good... until the first disassembly. Then they start to look like hell.

'Cobbled', 'mistimed', etc.

There is no need for this at all. If ever there was an application screaming for a modern fastener drive system, this is it.

OMG! Blasphemy!

But really... any modern drive system, starting with a 'Security Torx' could be engraved as part of the pattern. That would look worse than a mistimed cobbled narrow slot how?

This would not necessarily require a screw machine part, just a screw made from stock with the drive system already cut in.

Shotgunjones,
I recall the Torx screws used on the CSM O/U's. Not the best looking, and I remember some of the comments as to their use by perspective purchasers. Still, seemed like a useful way to keep things tight, and to prevent the dreaded "buggering" of screws.
Karl

Blasphemous indeed I do not mind all the modern fastener alternatives, laser etching, and the latest polymer stocks if I'm getting a working gun that costs a few hundreds. When one pays the price of a nice house for a gun though they want traditional designs, laborious hand fitting, time consuming oil finish, rust blackening, and manually carved decoration. What is perfectly fine on a Beretta SP would be scandalous on a "best" gun.

This makes about as much sense as lowering testing standards so that every one can qualify or receive a passing grade.

I really don't want to see torx screws on fine guns & yes I know that a few very high end Italian makers have been using them on hidden lock parts for some time.

No reason to have mistimed or buggered slotted screws on any gun new or used other than sloppy workmanship or unwillingness to do things correctly as a cost cutting / time saving measure.

Adrian, are you looking to order a gun from Hartmann & Weiss?

Torx is only a starting point. A 12 point flange, a double hex, or spline drive would look fine on that floor plate screw and would not draw your eye like a slot, even a brand new clean slot.

The problem with screws, is that they fit exactly once. They work by being stretched, and the final position after reassembly and proper torque is different. You want a fastener full of Locktite just so it looks 'proper'?

I realize these designs were finalized in 1875, but a slotted screw is simply not 'best' in 2017.

Fire away!

Jones, you have got to be kidding me?

That will never happen on a gun of that caliber.

And that bottom plate screw does looked buggered.

I know it won't.

But it does appear that the screw has backed itself out.

This is hardly uncommon.

It may be a new gun, but it's a used screw since it had to come apart for CC.

Send that sucker back!

ALIGNED, aligned, aligned~~~ screws aligned.
north is a compass bearing...

Just an observation!! The person who handed the gun to the photographer did not notice it, the photographer did the same the advertisement department ditto. In reality if the gun was sent to the purchaser with that miss aligned screw they have the potential to upset just one person. But with this photograph they show the rest of the world how poor in reality their quality control is. I would also say in this case their quality control is non existent.

SDH may have nailed it.

That screw is indexed to magnetic north.

That's a very high quality photograph that allows for enlargement to many times the actual size without blurring. I did so, and that screw slot is not buggered.

SRH

To me there's something odd looking about it though. It just stands out a little too much. That screw should blend in more with the trigger plate.

My latest project gun will have very narrow screw slots which will be hidden within the engraving. This is a rarely seen concept, but also very attractive.

Shotgunjones makes a very valid point.

Also, good mechanical design bypasses screws which by nature are stress concentrators. But 19th century designs deemed "best" had them so we must have them. Verney Carron fixes the triggerplate with a pin and it looks just fine, though it does not let you play with your rosewood handled turnscrews.

Buy yourself a good set of hollow ground screwdrivers instead of using the ones you open your paint cans with and you won't mess up the screws.

Rosewood or ivory handled screw destroyers.

With oil bottle to match to soak the head of the stock and leak all over the billiard cloth and leather case.

How about this idea: Countersink the screw with a hex drive so you can actually get enough torque on it so the screw stays put, and then thread the countersink for a plug screw.

You could then index the plug screw along the axis of your choice, be it compass, GPS, or "seaman's eye".

I think the thought was 'new world helps old world', not old world gets replaced. I think it's the about overall image, not the fastener. Even if it isn't so, it probably needs to look like a production machine can't make it, or that the power driver in the kitchen drawer is the go to tool.

treb, there's one screwdriver in the world that exactly fits that thing - that being the one they put it together with.

That screwdriver is in Germany which makes field service a tad inconvenient.

The idea of handmade 'perfect' workmanship is not lost on me. I 'get' that part.

My point is that this can coexist with serviceability in the modern age.

Ha! I just went down to the 'gun room' (garage) to swab out my K-20 after a fine weekend in pursuit of the wily clay target, and guess what holds the trigger plate in?

I likely noticed before but apparently forgot...

It looks to be a Torx head screw. It has 6 points, but I can't tell if it's standard or not since the guard is in the way.

So, they know about Torx 'style' fasteners in Germany and they have made it as far up the food chain as Krieghoff.

Serviceability by who?


Most of these remarks are from can'ts attacking can's.

I'm sure if you found your way to the front of the line at H&W, all your screws would be facing longitudinally at delivery.

Regarding Torx, Phillips, Allen, or whatever non-slotted head pattern you choose, they too have a symmetry. So if you are the "highly observant" type concerned about alignment you'll notice those as well. They're harder to notice but much harder to align .
Just a thought.
Jeremy

My guess would be that it is not a one off slot with a matching one off bit to fit it. It's likely a machine cut slot to some in house standard. All it has to do is appear 'fine'. For a very few dollars, I'd think some torx screws could be sent along with the gun with the buyer having the choice of which set was on when the gun is delivered.

That particular example appears to have 'fine' English rose and scroll engraving. The roses of the 'fine' engraving look like torx heads to me. While the scroll is 'fine' in its size, there's almost no shading. Maybe, it's a price point gun?

No Best maker would have let it out of the shop like that.

Apparently, this photo is of a gun on the Hartman & Weiss website.

If you are contemplating buying one of their guns, why not contact them with a link to this particular discussion so that they will understand that the vast majority of buyers of an expensive engraved shotgun find this sort of attention to detail unacceptable?

In all likelihood, the screw just needs torqued down another fraction of a turn to align the slot. Highly doubtful it was built with a misaligned slot prior to engraving and case hardening. But that little detail should have been done before the gun was handed to a photographer for an advertising photo. Someone really dropped the ball.

It is incorrect to think that narrow slot screws cannot be removed or replaced without damage or misalignment. It simply takes more care, and the proper hollow ground screw driver. When a good gunsmith finds a screw with a slot that his drivers don't fit, he will grind a tip to fit perfectly before he ever attempts to move the screw.

The best trick I have learned about not buggering up a screw is to never try to turn it. Hard to not do sometimes I know but I have stopped taking things apart at last. Just wish more than a few gunsmiths would do the same. I've had more than one gun returned with a screw that suffered from a trip to the gunsmith.

One need only watch a video showing how that screw was fitted to the action to understand why it was just an oversight during the photography shoot.

The items the photographer wished to illuminate are very nice, in my view.

That picture has been chewed on before.
So have the proud wood pictures.

I'm not even sure they are still taking orders.
The principals have to be in their 80's by now.

Craig,
The screws are, indeed, one off, and the screw drivers are also. The screw originally had a very thick head, with a sacrificial slot. When every thing was fit up and turned in properly, a new slot location was marked( north and south) and either filed or sawn( with a fine blade),then the head was filed flush, polished and engraved. The screw driver would have been made to fit that screw( and others in that location in other guns made at the same workbench). When the finished screw in under or over turned, then not only is the slot noticeable, but the engraving is mismatched.
With regard to scope rings, the only logical type screw to use is either Allen or Torx.
Mike

Don't forget the peening before dressing, Mike.

There is always the potential to mar or bugger a screw when tightening or removing, especially on old vintage guns where they may be a bit stuck after not being turned for 100 or more years. The temptation to be impatient instead of giving penetrating oil time to soak in may result in a bit slipping or even breaking.

I have a D.M Lefever crossbolt that has perfect screw slots. I would have bet they were never turned. Then I was reading an article in Double Gun Journal on the D.M. Lefever crossbolt guns by retired Oregon gunsmith Keith Kearcher. He had photos of one of these guns in a very disassembled state to show the internal mechanism. I thought the four digit serial number seemed very familiar. I looked at my gun, and was surprised to see that it was mine that was the disassembled gun in the photos. Kearcher hadn't left a mark on any of the screws... as it should be. There is a difference between a gunsmith and a mechanic.

I couldn't agree more!!!

Gunsmith joke: What is the difference between a screwdriver and a turnscrew?
About $60

For badly chosen pic of "best" guns see the cover of Macintosh and Roosenburg's Holland & Holland book (green cover).
The pic shows a "dutchman" right in the drop point, front and center!

You people crack me up.