Originally Posted By: jack maloney

And who is to say the XXV is not an improvement over existing designs?

Many shooters believed - and still believe - it is. I certainly found it to be so, for ruffed grouse shooting.



Well, Jack, let's see . . . Thomas and McIntosh made quite clear that the barrel length, in and of itself, is not an improvement--even though Thomas, like you, has a personal preference for the XXV. From the above quote, you're taking what shooters BELIEVE (including yourself), rather than something that can be proven, objectively--like the Model 21's superior strength and the Super Fox's superior patterns--and citing that as proof of improvement, superiority, or exclusive merit.

My dictionary defines "doctrinaire", as a noun, as "someone apt to apply theories without proper grasp of practical considerations". Thomas recognized that Churchill based his XXV on a theory that represented no practical, inherent advantage over guns with longer barrels--although it might work well for some people. Taking that theory and citing it as an improvement, without objective proof, clearly makes you a doctrinaire convert. Nothing wrong with that, any more than there is with Churchill using the XXV theory to sell guns--but it's always worthwhile when one understands one's own shortcomings and lack of objectivity.

Your argument is that the XXV wasn't a mere marketing ploy. We're back where we started. In order to prove it was not--in contrast to statements from people like Thomas (who really likes the XXV) and McIntosh that it was simply a marketing ploy--you need to establish, once and for all, some demonstrable superiority over guns with other barrel lengths. And it has to be a bit better than "Well, I shoot this 25" gun better than I do this 26" gun", which is purely a matter of what works for ONE shooter. No guarantee it will work for most shooters, let alone all (which Thomas clearly recognizes). And by the way, Jack, do you own a REAL Churchill XXV? If not, then you're only talking about some sort of copy of the real thing that happens to have 25" barrels and maybe a Churchill rib. So while you have some personal experience with guns with 25" barrels, if you don't own a Churchill XXV, then you're not aware of the specific advantages of that model.