doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com irish shotgun inputs please

im heading over a fellows house to view his guns.
i never heard of irish shotguns.
anyone care to share some common names and quality points?
good years, bad years, bad names etc...thanks.

http://www.downnews.co.uk/the-irish-gunmakers-and-their-hidden-legacy/

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?41628-Irish-Made-Shotgun-Kavangh

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=12737187308&searchurl=tn%3Denglish%2Birish%2Bscottish%2Bfirearms%2Bmakers%26sortby%3D17

any modern arms currently?

bobski,
Woodcock Hill (Thomas Bland) has a Joseph Braddell of Belfast Ireland on their website priced at 4K, it's a 12 gauge boxlock non-ejector. There is number of photos on the site. It's the only Irish gun I've ever seen while perusing the various shotgun websites. Hope this helps.
Tim

Rigby was probably the most well known name, back in the day.

At one time I had a yearning for an Irish side by side with my mother's parents both off the boat from Kerry. An Irish or later a Celtic gun has long been on my bucket list.

My hunting lead primarily to Kavanaugh and Rigby. What I found over the years was in terms of guns made in Ireland proper there really was not much out there in the market worth buying. That which was, tended to be well used worn out Boxlocks. All were 12 bore.

I do not know if shotgun production in the 20th century was closed down by laws or market competition from England, or demand changed, but not much here in the USA worth loking at. Rigby left Ireland in 1897 so that maybe an indicator.

I do not know if Belfast made guns are really Birmingham guns finished in Ireland or not.

Maybe some of our UK or Ireland posters could provide more information Irish made Shotguns.

I did find Scottish guns a more useful objective to track. In particular Alex Henry and Alex Martin celtic engraved guns. They are not common but do come on the market from time to time. Currently Champlain has a nice one, but they value more highly than I can afford to.

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...&GunID=2936

McKay-Brown also has some beautiful Celtic engraved guns, but out of my market.

The most common Irish made guns I see on the market here in the USA are muzzle loading pistols, not shotguns.

You've never heard of John Rigby?

They've made some fairly decent guns over the centuries. As a matter of fact they still do.

https://www.johnrigbyandco.com/about/history/


This one can be had for a mere pittance of $99,000.00

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100283808

Is Rigby really an Irish company? Given their moving shop to England over a hundred years ago I am not sure it can still be classed as an Irish maker. Most Rigby shotguns one might run into are more than likely not Irish made.

Yes they are a quality maker through their history, though seemingly more rifle focused.

Even your tongue and cheek example is a London gun.

As for the question of quality points for an Irish made shotgun vs other shotguns, I believe they are the same as any British made, Continental made, or American made gun.

Braddell , at least until the last decade or two, was still in business in Belfast. Many Braddell guns in the early 1900s were started, at least, by Bentley and Playfair and Hollis Bentley and Playfair.

Just a note, but I'm not aware of any type of infrastructure existing in Ireland to support a gun making trade. Especially due to the early decentralized nature of the industry, such as was found in and around Birmingham. Anyone know of any Irish component manufacturers or secondary service providers such as Stockers, Actioners, Barrel Finishers, etc? It seems to me that whatever firms that operated in Ireland, with a few previously noted exceptions, could be considered to operate like many English Provincial Gunmakers did, sourcing everything from components to finished guns from England.

Regards
Ken

More or less what Ken said. Here is a googled up bit of history on Irish guns.



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Hmmmm,well back in the days of yore [17 th to early 20th century]we had aquite a firearms industry here in Ireland.. One of the most famous bespoke English gunmakers John Rigby and Sons started out in Dublin,as did William Greener,and a few others as well.

Thats not to forget that pretty much every major city in Ireland had it's resident gunmakers,many of which have been lost to time. That alone is a worthy and lengthy book/doctorate for anyone intrested in that..

As part of the English empire,it was hardly surprising that we had plenty of bespoke English guns here..However due to many dumbass political movements,political decisions,riots,rebellions,wars and general ill will over the course of Irish history firearms manufacture has been somwhat restricted if not down right frowned upon by the powers that be.

The last modern firearms made here were in the 1960s to about early 1970s ,and were called "The Fenian" it was an O/U shotgun in 12 ga of a rather unique opening system,somthing onto the French" Darne "shotgun.They were made in Birr,Co Offaly by P V Kavanagh.

Most of them were exported to the US,Canada,and the UK.
But they werent a great seller,and had problems with their steel guide rods in the action.However,they have a collectors value now as they are uniquely Irish.

Those ,apart from some ingenious SMGs,based mostly on either the Sten or Sterling made by either sections of the warring Northern Ireland community in the 1960s to 1990s.Known as either "Ulster funny guns",or "Harland &Wolff Specials"[From the famous Belfast shipyard,where some "after hours work" was conducted by boith sides],and the odd traditional "zip gun"
Are pretty much it for Irish gunmaking.

By and large most gunmakers bought in English guns and actions,etc and just stamped with their names and assembled them for their customers.Hardly surprising as the massive then English armaments industries of Birmingham,London etc could churn out stuff like that for ten a penny and export it to its Empire.

What we generally have here is more famous personalities associated with certain guns during our history,or certain firearms having an asociation with Irish history.IE Eamon Develara one of our prime ministers is associated with using a Mauser C96 broomhandle pistol in the war of independance and civil war.
Daniel O Connell ,a great liberator of the Catholics and famous duellist is asscoiated with John Nock[Another Irish gunsmith] duelling pistols.

So maybe I've missed some other Irish made design,but by and large I cant think of one orginal uniquely Irish designed gun.

I have always liked the Celtic type engraving, with that lovely kinda over n under strap work, with knots & birds etc.
I have seen a few Scottish guns, Alex Martin are the ones that come to mind, & of course McKay Brown
But I haven't seen one with an Irish name.
I'd LOVE to find one , as I spent a few years in Ireland playing Fiddle music in a pub, & I have such a love for that country & the people there
cheers
franc

Here's a link to a Cowan's auction of a field grade hammer-gun made by John Fry of Derry, Ireland.

https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/irish-...er-derry-138748

I wish there were more pictures and details because this John Fry gun has nice lines. Jagermeister ought to be along shortly to advise bobski to buy either an Ithaca pump or an A5 Browning.

Guns are obviously made just about everywhere, even by prisoners in penitentiaries. But some areas or cities just have all of the ingredients, such as sources of hydropower, coal, iron, steel-making, highly skilled machinists and assemblers, and the political climate to make them especially attractive to a thriving gun-making trade. A market of willing consumers helps too.

I have a Thomas Henshaw & Co, Dublin 20 bore BLNE. It has 28" bbls and .004/.006 chokes.

Short answer: Retailed in Dublin, Made in Birmingham.

Long answer:

The gun was made by G&S Holloway of Birmingham. I have a between the wars Holloway catalog. On the cover the catalog proclaims:"Agents: Irish Free State -- Thos. H. Henshaw & Co. Dublin"
The Irish Free State only existed between 1922 and 1937. The guns serial number starts with a H, only found as a prefix to the serial number of the gun on the under rib of the barrel. The H (for Holloway) is not present on the trigger guard, but the rest of the serial number is.
The gun is No. 710 on page 19 of the catalog. 17 gbp. It was London reproofed in 2002 for 950 bar, 2 3/4".
The watertable is quite crowded with the original Birmingham proofs and the later London reproofs.
I haven't done any looking for Thomas Henshaw and Co. Perhaps I will now.

Joe

Their muzzleloading rifles were renown for their accuracy.

"The famous Creedmoor Match of 1874 between the American and Irish national teams came about as the result of a letter that was sent to the New York Herald and published on November 22, 1873 entitled �Challenge to the Riflemen of America from the Riflemen of Ireland�.

The U.S. team used a combination of breech loading Remington Rolling Blocks and Sharps rifles. The Irish team used Rigby muzzle loading rifles.

The first Creedmoor Match was won by the American team on the very last shot of the match. The score with one shot remaining was the Irish team 931 and the American team 930."

Its a shame we used breechloaders and not our muzzleloading rifles. It would have been interesting to see what maker of rifles our team would have used during that shoot.

I had, for a while, a very nice BLNE marked "Hunter and Sons,Belfast ( I think). I queried that gun on this forum and got little info. Passed it on to a neighbor here who had to have it

The Irish gunmaker Newton set up in the town of Grantham in eastern England and taught gunmaking to his apprentices- Wogdon, and the Manton brothers. Joseph Manton passed his skills on to men such as Purdey and others. So in a way the foundations of the English trade were laid by an Irishman.

One Irish gun i saw was a back action peninsula lock hammergun. It bore the name Berry, Dublin, on the locks.

Below is a list from IGC of Irish gunmakers, smiths and stores. Having just spent a while doing this, please accept that it is not necessarily exhaustive and misses out some considerable additional info on several of the names. However, it gives an idea of the scale of shotgun retail in the time frame we are interested in.

I can of course expand further on some of these names if required.

L Alley Dublin Gunmaker 1760-1775
N Alley Dublin Gunmaker 1760
Henry Allport Cork Gunmaker 1826?-1880?
William Anglin Wexford Gunmaker c.1830
Edward Bassit Dublin Gunmaker 1840-1850
Bryan Cork Gun maker 1810?
Thomas Calderwood 22 Little Mary Street Dublin Gunmaker 1810-1896
Clarke Dublin Pistol maker c.1815
George Cooney Kells Hardware Merchant c.1900
W Doyle & Co Church Court and Church Street Dublin Gunmakers 1900
P Duff Ballygawley Gunmaker 1900
John Dunne 10 Russell Street Tralee Gunmaker 1900
Edward Dublin NK
John Edwards Castle Street Tralee Gunmaker 1927-30?
Eley Brothers 9 Dawson Street - See William Eley Dublin
J Fearniey Soothill Gunmaker c.1875
The Fenian Gun Company Dublin? Gunmakers 1890?
John Flint & Co Church Court Dublin Gunmaker 1900
Ran Ford Dublin Gunmaker c.1740
Thomas Fowler Dublin Gunmaker c.1810
Foys Athlone Gun Dealers? c.1900
Freeney's High Street Galway Gun Dealer c.1920?
Paddy Garnett Crampton Court, Dame Street; Essex Quay Dublin Gunsmith 1860-1990?
M Garnett & Son See Paddy Garnett Dublin
Garnetts & Keegans See Paddy Garnett Dublin
Gilroy Lurgan Gunmaker 1820?
J Gray Dublin Gun maker 1800?
Hall & Powell see Benjamin Powell of Dublin, Ireland Dublin
Harold Dundalk Gun maker 1825?
H Hart Gunmaker c.1860?
Hely Bros 26-29 Dame Street Dublin Gun dealers & fishing tackle 1900?-1965?
Thomas H Henshaw & Co Dublin Gunmakers? c.1920? Agents for Holloway & Sons
Timothy Hughes Cork Gunmaker c.1770
Irish Metal Industries Ltd Dublin Ammunition Manufacturers 1926?-1962?
William Kavanagh 6 Anderson's Court, Greek Street Dublin Gun, pistol & rifle maker 1796-1928
P V Kavanagh & Sons Dublin Gunmaker 1850?-1965?
L Keegan 35 Upper Ormonde Quay Dublin Gunmaker 1900-1939
Langson Dublin NK
John Lanigan Dublin Gunmaker c.1840
Leech Sligo Gunmaker 1820?-1846?
Michael Loughlan North Main Street Youghal Gunmaker 1900
John McDaniel Monaghan Gunmaker 1818?-1840?
John McDaniel Monaghan Gunmaker c.1800-1825
Farrell McDermot 35 St Mary's Abbey Dublin Gun maker 1795-1827
Roger Mulligan Dublin Gun maker 1719-1727
J T Mulligan Cork NK 1880?
John Murphy Dublin Gunmaker c.1820
T W Murray & Co 87 Patrick Street Cork Gunmaker 1826-1956
T Naughton & Sons Sports Dealers c.1930?
Francis Nelson 32 Castle Street Sligo Gunmaker 1900?-1930?
Augustine Nerstor 28 & 33 George Street Limerick Gunmaker 1900
A Nestor Limerick Gunsmith? c.1880?
Daniel O'Connor 12 Parliament Street Dublin Gunmaker 1850?
J C Parkes & Co 110-111 Combe Dublin Gunmaker 1900
John Parkinson 17 Arram Quay Dublin Gunmaker 1900
Thomas Pattison Unknown address Dublin Gunmakers 1835-1860?
Benjamin Powell Dublin Gunmaker 1750?-1800?
M Ransford Dublin Gunmaker c1750
Read Dublin Gunmaker & Sword Cutler
G Richardson Unknown address Cork Gun maker 1824?-1875
Richardson Doughal Gun maker c.1850
Thomas Richardson & Sons See G Richardson Cork
John Rigby 19 Suffolk Street Dublin Gun & rifle manufacturers 1775-1892
Rumbold Dublin Gun makers 1750?-1810?
Ryan Dublin Gunmaker C.1800
Shore Gunmaker c.1800
E Thompson Essex Quay Dublin Gunsmith 1900
William Trulock Britain Street Dublin Gunmakers 1814-1918
Trulock & Harriss See William Trulock Dublin
Trulock Brothers See William Trulock Dublin
Joseph Tuthill 134 North Main Street Youghal Gunsmith 1900
Samuel Wallace Dublin Gun maker 1775?
Walsh Dublin Gunmaker c.1840
Watts Bros Ltd 4 Upper Abbey Street Dublin Gun & Rifle Makers 1900?-1950?
Charles Weekes & Co 27 Essex Quay - See John Weekes Dublin
John Weekes & Co 12 Fishramble Street Dublin Gunmakers 1835-1906
John Wheelock Main Street Wexford Gunsmith 1900
P W Whitney Cork Gunmaker
Whittaker & Co 14 William Street Limerick Gunsmiths 1900
Wilkes & Harrison Dublin Ireland Dates 1893?

Tim

Tim, thanks. That is quite an effort.

I have "the first gem in my collection" which I stumbled up on when I was a teenager, a Calderwood shotgun, early irish made gun. James Calderwood advertised as gunmaker to the lord lieutenant in Ireland, and most examples I have seen have been truly stunning guns finished to a high standard. I feel like Calderwood as a maker has been overlooked in the annals of gunmaking history its not a name we have all heard of like rigby's or even Kavanagh.

I found an old book on google where Calderwood was credited along side makers we know like Manton for pushing the trade forwards to making what we recognise as truly fine sporting guns - I have since lost this reference but I'm sure ill have it somewhere.

Daryl, thank you.

Here is what IGC has on your man, Demonwolf444:

Name Thomas Calderwood
Other Names Calderwood & Son; Thomas Calderwood Jnr
Address1 22 Little Mary Street
Address2 6 White Lane, Dorset Street
Address3 14 North Earl Street
Address4 21 Duke Street
Address5 22 Duke Street
Address6 61 Upper Sackville Street
Address7 24 Upper Sackville Street
City/Town Dublin
Country Ireland
Trade Gunmaker
Dates 1810-1896

Notes

Thomas Calderwood was first recorded in 1810 at 22 Little Mary Street, Dublin, he moved in 1813 to 6 White Lane, Dorset Street. It is likely that his father was a gunmaker and he may have inherited the business. In 1815 he made his son, James, a partner in the business and moved to 14 North Earl Street. By 1841 Thomas had retired or died and either James or Thomas Jnr (presumably another son) had taken over the firm; it moved it to 21 Duke Street. In 1845 the firm moved to 22 Duke Street, and in 1859 to 61 Upper Sackville Street. In 1876 the firm moved to 24 Upper Sackville Street where they remained until closing in 1896.

The Calderwoods of Pennsylvania were probably related.

Tim

I live in Dublin and there are no gunshops as such in the city anymore. When i was young there were about four gun/tackle shops but they are long gone now. The best was Garnett and Keegans in Parliament street, just south of the river liffey. My father took me there a few times when i was a youngster, if you wanted something high end in the gun or tackle line, thats where you went.

https://stephenmyallblog.wordpress.com/garnettskeegans/

Directly across Parliament street at number 13 was Trulock brothers gunmakers. They were at that address until sometime shortly before the first world war, when the last of the brothers died and the business closed. I have a sidelock non-ejector made by Trulock brothers, that appears to have been a very good quality gun. I have spoken to Vivienne Trulock, who has a website detailing her family history. She cannot find any link between Trulock and harris of Dawson street and Trulock bros.

http://www.trulock.info/gallery

Most of the gunmakers were close to either Dublin castle or the Irish houses of parliament (now bank of Ireland) on College Green. With the act of union in 1800/01, the city went into a long decline and the great and good left, removing any market for expensive guns. That is why most of the makers such as Rigby, Stephen Grant (from Tipperary) etc moved to the UK.

Interesting about Vivienne Trulock not finding any link.

For interest, this is what IGC has on the firms:
Name William Trulock
Other Names Trulock & Son; Trulock & Harriss; Trulock Brothers; Trulock, Harriss & Richardson; Trulock, Harriss & Richardson Ltd;H Trulock, Harriss
Address1 Britain Street
Address2 11 Essex Bridge
Address3 9 Dawson Street
Address4 13 Parliament Square
City/Town Dublin
Country Ireland
Trade Gunmakers
Other Address 22 Bury Street, St James's, London; 4 Pickering Place, St James's Street, London
Dates 1814-1918

Notes

William Trulock reportedly established his firm in 1814 in Britain Street, Dublin, Ireland. He may have previously lived and worked in London, but this has not been confirmed. An address at 11 Essex Bridge has been recorded but dates are unknown. At some time, probably around 1820, the firm became Trulock & Son, and they moved to 9 Dawson Street. In about 1840 William Trulock's son-in-law became a partner in the firm, and it was re-named Trulock & Harriss. It is almost certain that William Trulock had died and that his son of the same name and ? Harris inherited the business.

In about 1855 Samuel, Richard and William Trulock (sons of William (II)?) took over the firm and renamed it Trulock Brothers. In 1863 the brothers together with John Gibson patented a drop-down barrel action. In 1867 the brothers patented their "Lockfast" action (No. 1904) (see Dougall who also patented a "Lockfast" action). From about 1875 to 1885 John Forrestall Smythe was Manager of the firm, he left to buy the business of Francis Brebner in Darlington.

In 1892 the firm took over the Dublin business of J Rigby & Son, soon after this date they moved to 13 Parliament Square, Dublin. By 1900 it appears some of the Trulock brothers had left or died, and Harriss' son and ? Richardson had become partners, the name of the firm becoming Trulock, Harriss & Richardson.

In 1909 a shop was opened in London at 22 Bury Street, St James's. In 1911 the firm became a limited liability company, moving to 4 Pickering Place, St James's Street. In 1916 the company was put into liquidation and the business was taken over by a new firm named H Trulock Harriss. It was not recorded as trading after 1918.

Other Info

The firm sold cartridges under their own name and under the names "Special Brown" (post 1910), "Special Blue" (post 1900), "Empire" (post 1919) and "Tru-iss" around the time they were located at Pickering Place.

Tim

Vivienne said she could not find how the two seperate firms/families were related, they did know each other and attended each others family occasions etc. The Trulock bros firm ended in 1910 or shortly afterwards when Richard (Dick) Trulock, the last brother alive, took a revolver out of a case in the shop in Parliament street and sadly shot himself.

Vivienne had just given birth when i was talking to her, and i didn't want to pester her too much. I was trying to find out if any records of the guns made still existed , but it appears they do not.

Based on the IGC clue that Harriss was a son in law to William Trulock, I went on to Ancestry. I found the connection.

William Trulock's daughter Elizabeth Georgina was married on 4 June 1846 in St. Anne's Parish, Dublin, Ireland to Joseph Harriss. Her address is given as Dawson Street. They had two sons, John Trulock Harriss & Henry "Harry" Joseph Harriss.

I also found this little article, probably written by the firm themselves, published in 1893.

Tim

[img:left][/img]

Tim, thanks for that. A range in Landsdowne road ? That is amazing ! I am sure you know landsdowne road for the rugby stadium, it is basically in what you could call the city centre today.

Any more detailed information on Rigby's rifled barrels?