doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Velocity of 1890's English Pheasant Loads?

Jon;
Do realize those 1300 fps velocities were not actually measured, but calculated as in that era they simply did not have the means of measuring actual muzzle velocity.
However to get an average velocity of 1050 fps over 20 yds with British #6 (approx US #7) they were undoubtedly very close on their calculations. To kill pheasants at 50 yds with Brit #6's they certainly weren't shooting pip squeak loads. Also realize these were the loas the 96;1 ratio of gun weight to shot weight was worked out for & they shot a pile of shells on a driven shoot in those days.
I get a bang out of reading all the folks who can't handle a 2�-1 (about 1175 fps) load from a 6 lb 16 gauge if they shoot more than 4-5 rounds a day.

More information on p.68. No. 6 shot
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA68&dq
1 oz. 3 Dram (presumed to be "Schultze") MV 1229 fps; 40 yd 629
1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram MV 1190; 40 yd. 620
1 1/4 oz. 4 Dram MV 1279; 40 yd 640

SO 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram 120 yrs ago was (about) 1200 fps, as today.

That's how I understood the origin of the 3 Dram eq. traditional nomenclature, was that it would give 1 1/8 oz. 1200 fps. MV.

Retained velocity is also dependent on shot size.

At least Western Cartridge had the sense to not use English 6's in heavier loads. The whole point of the heavier load is to use larger shot, that's where the longer effective range comes from.

If I am not badly mistaken, which I might well be, which set 1200 fps for a 3-1 1/8 load was measured at 15 feet, thus is not true muzzle velocity. As soon as the charge has opened where individual pellet drag begins to take affect initial velocity loss is quite high. This occurs well before reaching 15 feet. Thus the 3 1 1/8 load's actual MV was somewhat higher than the reported 1200 fps.
In many ways the older method of measuring the velocity over 20 or 40 yards was more meaningful than muzzle velocity. Two things it shows is the higher retained velocity of larger shot as ShtGnJones mentioned. It also shows that the 18% velocity increase going from 1100 to 1300 fps does not give anywhere near an 18% increase "Down Range" where the actual contact with game is made. Little round pellets are very inefficient above Mach 1 (speed of sound).

"Velocity And Striking Force of Shot Pellets of Different Sizes"
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA81&dq

https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA178&dq

1 1/8 oz. No. 6 shot with 3 Dram C&H Black Powder or 42 gr. Nitro with 30" barrel MV

No. 2 (Fine Grain) BP - 1122 fps; 34" barrel 1147
No. 4 BP - 1114
No. 6 BP - 1051
"Schultze" - 1113; 34" 1119
"E.C." - 1106; 34" 1120
"S.S." - 1110

"S.S." (Smokeless Shot-gun) was a Bulk Smokeless powder made by Smokeless Powder Co. It was discarded as loading with higher charges of powder produced significantly greater pressures than "E.C." or Schultze.

Pressures + 10 - 14%

This is an interesting read. I haven't tried converting a slug or shot into all the calculations provided . None-the-less I expect more could be gleamed out of our loads if one did all the calculations.

http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm

Thank Drew Hause and Tamid.
BillK

As Miller pointed out, you do need to be careful with British vs American velocities. The "observed velocity" measurement (avg over 20 yards) was the standard a century ago. Much more recently, back before I understood that difference in their measurements vs ours, I ran across observed velocity figures for Eley shotshells in Gough Thomas' books.

Currently, however, they will often use muzzle velocity. But unlike our muzzle velocity, which is measured at 3 feet, theirs is measured at the muzzle. So if you see British shotshells with pretty high velocity figures--like 1400 fps--you can be sure that's MV and not observed velocity. And would likely equate to something less than 1300 fps as we measure MV. A load loses a bunch of velocity in that first yard.

Here we go with this again....

What is so special about the 'first yard' that the load would lose over 100 fps?

Drag does indeed vary as the square of the velocity, but that applies to each and every yard.

There is such a thing as trans sonic drag variation, but that's velocity related and has nothing to do with position relative to the muzzle. In fact, we launch pellets over quite a range relative to sonic, which is 'roughly' 1125 fps (it varies with temperature).

I call BS on the 'rapid loss of velocity in the first yard'.