doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Velocity of 1890's English Pheasant Loads?

I read Ralph Galleyway's "The Merits of Chokes and Cylinders", and he talks about the potential to fold birds at 50 yards with #6 English shot, that seems a bit far to me, but I'm open to being further educated. I had read somewhere that the English shot-shell standard velocity was 1050 fps because it patterned the best, in my mind that's too slow to kill pheasants at 50 yards with #6 English shot. Anyone know what the velocity would have been? I'm assuming this would be a black powder load, and not over 1200 fps, but the 1050 fps supposed "standard" seems off to me.

If the birds were driven and incoming exposing the breast, they would be alot easier to kill. I've hammered North Dakota pheasants with #5s going away and they are hard to bring down from behind.
Karl

The case label with a c. 1880 William Sumners, Liverpool 12b specified Curtis & Harvey No. 5 Black Powder:
�Light� - 2 3/4 Dram with 1 oz. shot (1180 fps)
�Medium� - 3 Dram with 1 1/8 oz. shot (1200 fps)
�Heavy� - 3 1/4 Dram with 1 1/4 oz/ shot (1220 fps)

Lord Walsingham
�On August 30, 1888 when I killed 1,070 grouse to my own gun in the day, I shot with four breechloaders. No.1, a gun made in 1866 by Purdey, subsequently converted from pin-fire to central principle, to which new barrels were made last year. Nos.2 and 3, a pair of central fire breechloaders, made also by Purdey, about 1870, for which I have likewise had new barrels. No.4, a new gun made by Purdey this year to match the two mentioned above, but with Whitworth steel instead of Damascus barrels. The guns are all 12 bore, with cylinder 30 in. barrels, not choked.�
�My cartridges were loaded by Johnson, of Swaffham; those used in the down-wind drives containing 3 1/8 drs. Hall�s Field B powder to 1 1/8ozs. No. 5 Derby shot; those used in the up-wind drives (where the birds, of course, came slower) had 3 drs. only of the same powder, with the same shot; not hardened shot in either case.�

1896 Lancaster
�E.C.� No. 1 42 grains = 3 Dram with 1 1/8 oz. shot

A 1906 Holland & Holland hang tag specified the gun was regulated for 42 grains �Schultze� = 3 Dram with 1 1/16 oz. shot.

The standard 2 1/2� 12g British load according to the 1907 edition of Greener's The Gun was 1 1/8 oz. 3 1/4 dram (1255 fps).

BTW: UK 6 = .10" = US 7; UK 5 = US 6

Dr. Drew Hause, I don't mean to change the subject, but I acquired a hammer SxS shotgun made by William Sumners a few months ago. Would you like to share a pic of the case label? Also, any other information you can share on Mr Sumners and any gun pics, it would be most appreciated. Thank you in advance. BillK

For many years the British reported their velocity as "Observed Velocity". The velocities were measured by a Boulogne Chronograph which could not measure extremely small time intervals so the start screen was at the muzzle & the stop screen at 20 yds. This observed velocity of 1050fps over 20 yards was the standard loading & translated to an actual muzzle velocity of close to 1300 fps.
In some old US data you will see even lower velocities listed. We measured during this time frame over 40 yds. With the advent of electric Counter Chronographs the required time intervals were shortened so measurements began to be taken much closer to the muzzle so naturally show higher velocities for the same loading.

Bill: it may have been here, but the images are gone
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=381868&page=1

Thank you for that clarification Miller.
More here
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA66&dq
Velocity at 40 yds. 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram C&H No. 5 868 fps/ "Schultze" 875 fps

And to confuse us further, U.S. speed was reported at 40 yds.

In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. flyer �Super-X The Long Range Load� by Capt. Chas. Askins the 12g �Duck Load� (not specified but presumed to be 1 1/4 oz. Super-X �Field�) is described as 3 1/2 dram (38.5 gr. Powder; also not specified but no doubt DuPont Oval) at 1400 fps (at the muzzle rather than 3 feet) and 1000 fps at 40 yards, with a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or about 11,480 psi by Burrard�s conversion.
Askins may have used a bit of marketing hyperbole compared to Wallace Coxe.

The 1928 edition of �Smokeless Shotgun Powders� by Wallace Coxe, ballistic engineer of the Burnside Laboratory of the E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co. reported 3 1/2 Dram Eq. 1 1/4 oz. loads (1275 fps) and 40 yard fps:
(NOTE: pressures were measured by crushers (LUP) and modern transducer measurement pressures would be 10 � 14% higher)
DuPont Bulk smokeless powder - 11,700 psi, 943 fps
Schultze Bulk smokeless powder - 11,800 psi, 941 fps
28 grains of Ballistite Dense smokeless powder - 12,600 psi, 966 fps
(All 3 are greater than the SAAMI 12g 2 3/4� recommended maximum pressure of 11,500 psi.)
40 grains of DuPont Oval Progressive Burning powder - 9,400 psi, 981 fps.

Bill, Drew,

Just for clarification I do not have a case label for Sumners. If one can be found I would appreciate a copy.

Again, sorry for going OT, but this is what IGC has on Sumner:

Name William Sumners
Other Names W Sumners & Son
Address1 219 Oliver Street, Birkenhead
Address2 48 Oldhall Street
Address3 48 & 50 Oldhall Street
City/Town Liverpool
County Lancashire
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmaker
Dates 1858-1890?

Notes

William Sumners (b.1826 in Liverpool) is known to have worked for Williams & Powell, he may have been apprenticed to them. He was recorded in the 1841 census as a 15 year old apprentice gun maker living with his parents, John (b.1781 a furniture broker) and Mary (b.1793) Sumners, and his twin sister. William left Williams & Powell in 1858 to establish his own business at 219 Oliver Street, Birkenhead. He was recorded in the 1861 census living at 219 Oliver Street with his wife, Mary J (b.1829) and three daughters, Helen (b.1853), Mary (b.1855) and Kate (b.1857).

He was recorded at this address up to 1860. He does not seem to have been recorded in the 1871 census. In about 1875 he was recorded at 48 Oldhall Street. In the 1881 census he was recorded at this address. Another son and daughter had been born, John in 1862 and Blanch in 1866, but between 1866 and 1881 his first wife, Mary J had died and he had married Jane (b.1831 in Whitehaven). In this census he described himself as a master gunmaker and William Jnr, aged 21, as a gun maker. In about 1883 the firm's address became 48 & 50 Old Hall Street and at about this time he made his son a partner in the business which was re-named William Sumners & Son. The firm appear to have closed in about 1890.

I have two trade label versions. If you'd like me to send you copies, please send me a PM with your email address and I shall oblige.

Tim

So all these years I've been told light pressure, lower velocity loads, it was based on information which many mistook. I can't recall any recommendations for 1300 fps loads. I do recall a lot of sub 1200 fps loads. And pressures in the 11k range are well above as well. I understand this was for specific hunting in long range or high birds. Maybe it was just to be kind to old stocks. 1300 fps who knew?

Jon;
Do realize those 1300 fps velocities were not actually measured, but calculated as in that era they simply did not have the means of measuring actual muzzle velocity.
However to get an average velocity of 1050 fps over 20 yds with British #6 (approx US #7) they were undoubtedly very close on their calculations. To kill pheasants at 50 yds with Brit #6's they certainly weren't shooting pip squeak loads. Also realize these were the loas the 96;1 ratio of gun weight to shot weight was worked out for & they shot a pile of shells on a driven shoot in those days.
I get a bang out of reading all the folks who can't handle a 2�-1 (about 1175 fps) load from a 6 lb 16 gauge if they shoot more than 4-5 rounds a day.

More information on p.68. No. 6 shot
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA68&dq
1 oz. 3 Dram (presumed to be "Schultze") MV 1229 fps; 40 yd 629
1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram MV 1190; 40 yd. 620
1 1/4 oz. 4 Dram MV 1279; 40 yd 640

SO 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram 120 yrs ago was (about) 1200 fps, as today.

That's how I understood the origin of the 3 Dram eq. traditional nomenclature, was that it would give 1 1/8 oz. 1200 fps. MV.

Retained velocity is also dependent on shot size.

At least Western Cartridge had the sense to not use English 6's in heavier loads. The whole point of the heavier load is to use larger shot, that's where the longer effective range comes from.

If I am not badly mistaken, which I might well be, which set 1200 fps for a 3-1 1/8 load was measured at 15 feet, thus is not true muzzle velocity. As soon as the charge has opened where individual pellet drag begins to take affect initial velocity loss is quite high. This occurs well before reaching 15 feet. Thus the 3 1 1/8 load's actual MV was somewhat higher than the reported 1200 fps.
In many ways the older method of measuring the velocity over 20 or 40 yards was more meaningful than muzzle velocity. Two things it shows is the higher retained velocity of larger shot as ShtGnJones mentioned. It also shows that the 18% velocity increase going from 1100 to 1300 fps does not give anywhere near an 18% increase "Down Range" where the actual contact with game is made. Little round pellets are very inefficient above Mach 1 (speed of sound).

"Velocity And Striking Force of Shot Pellets of Different Sizes"
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA81&dq

https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA178&dq

1 1/8 oz. No. 6 shot with 3 Dram C&H Black Powder or 42 gr. Nitro with 30" barrel MV

No. 2 (Fine Grain) BP - 1122 fps; 34" barrel 1147
No. 4 BP - 1114
No. 6 BP - 1051
"Schultze" - 1113; 34" 1119
"E.C." - 1106; 34" 1120
"S.S." - 1110

"S.S." (Smokeless Shot-gun) was a Bulk Smokeless powder made by Smokeless Powder Co. It was discarded as loading with higher charges of powder produced significantly greater pressures than "E.C." or Schultze.

Pressures + 10 - 14%

This is an interesting read. I haven't tried converting a slug or shot into all the calculations provided . None-the-less I expect more could be gleamed out of our loads if one did all the calculations.

http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm

Thank Drew Hause and Tamid.
BillK

As Miller pointed out, you do need to be careful with British vs American velocities. The "observed velocity" measurement (avg over 20 yards) was the standard a century ago. Much more recently, back before I understood that difference in their measurements vs ours, I ran across observed velocity figures for Eley shotshells in Gough Thomas' books.

Currently, however, they will often use muzzle velocity. But unlike our muzzle velocity, which is measured at 3 feet, theirs is measured at the muzzle. So if you see British shotshells with pretty high velocity figures--like 1400 fps--you can be sure that's MV and not observed velocity. And would likely equate to something less than 1300 fps as we measure MV. A load loses a bunch of velocity in that first yard.

Here we go with this again....

What is so special about the 'first yard' that the load would lose over 100 fps?

Drag does indeed vary as the square of the velocity, but that applies to each and every yard.

There is such a thing as trans sonic drag variation, but that's velocity related and has nothing to do with position relative to the muzzle. In fact, we launch pellets over quite a range relative to sonic, which is 'roughly' 1125 fps (it varies with temperature).

I call BS on the 'rapid loss of velocity in the first yard'.

Jones;
I agree the first yard truly has nothing to do with velocity loss. What does though is that matter of Sonic speed. Drag rises well out of proportion to the square of the velocity when the the sonic barrier is broken.Thus velocity is lost very rapidly until the speed has fallen to around that 1125 fps. This will of course occur near the muzzle, but not necessarily within a yard. Increased speeds do not give near the advantage in ranging ability the ammo advertisers would have you believe.

Thanks to all who replied, the information is well appreciated. Thanks for clearing up the 1050fps thing too. I'm indebted to you gentlemen once more, sadly I doubt that I stand to teach you anything, but who knows.

The reason we "notice" a lot of velocity loss in the first yard is very simple. It's because velocity is commonly measured at 3 feet in this country, but can also be measured (as it is--sometimes--in the UK) at the muzzle. We notice it because we compare the two figures and say "what the heck is going on?" Miller provides an explanation of why that happens. As to why we don't "notice" it as much at 2 or 3 or 4 yards . . . velocity isn't commonly measured at those distances, even if the drop is similar to what takes place in the first yard. You won't usually find velocity figures, other than the initial number, until you get out to 10 yards (or maybe even 20). And from there in multiples of 10. But readily apparent that the loss in velocity is significantly greater from the muzzle (or from 3 feet, if you choose) to 20 yards than it is from 20 to 40 yards.

I have at hand an old chart published by WW many years ago. Velocities are given at "Muzzle" 20 yds, 40 yards & 60 yds. The following is for shot size #7�.

For MV of 1335 fps velocities are; 20yds = 930, 40yds = 715 & 60yds = 580
Loses for the 20yd increments are thus; 405fps, 215fps & 135 fps.

For MV of 1135 fps velocities are; 20yds = 830, 40yds = 655 & 60yds = 540
Loses for the 20yd increments are thus; 305fps, 175fps & 115 fps.

Total loss over the 60 yds was 755fps for the faster load, 595fps fot the slower one.

To put it another way 195 fps more velocity at the muzzle resulted in only 100 fps more at 20yds, 60fps at 40yds & 40 fps at 60 yds. Loss was for sure most rapid in the area between the 1330 & 1135 velocities.

At 40 yds the 1330 load had lost 46% of its initial velocity, the 1135 load 42% with the vast majority of this loss coming within the first 5 yds.

"with the vast majority of this loss coming within the first 5 yds."

Well, no... it doesn't say that at all.

It does say... that roughly the same velocity loss occurs in the first 20 yards as does in the next 40.

Backing up to the muzzle, with the faster load, 20/3 is 6.6, so at 6.6 yards we should have lost 1/2 of 405 which is 202.

I'd guess 170 fps loss at the 5 yard marker, which is only 22% of the total loss, not the vast majority.

I get the point that it's a V squared issue, and that drag is a bit more when above sonic, but I ain't buying that we lose 100 fps the first yard. It's more like half that, and choke effect is known to add 50 fps anyway.

Ok, so I looked it up.

David F. Butler in 'The American Shotgun' has a a brief blurb on exterior ballistics. His interior ballistics dissertation is much more extensive and highly recommended.

Butler was an 'engineer' at Winchester.

He says in reference to a chart that starts with 1336 fps at 3 feet (coil measurement), "This equates to slightly over 1350 fps at the muzzle".

So, vague and imprecise but no assertion of 100 fps loss in 3 feet.

The Book, "Experts on Guns and Shooting", by G.T.Teasdale- Buckell,published in 1900;details the research carried out by W.S.Griffith of the Schultze powder Company and W.D.Borland.on percussion caps.
The published test results indicates that average muzzle velocity of 12g shells tested was 1200 ft; per second.

Thanks Roy. More interesting stuff from G.T.
https://books.google.com/books?id=P7UrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA233
12g 1 1/8 oz. No.6 with 42 gr. = 3 Dram �Schultze� in 30� barrel
No choke: MV 1158 fps/ 40 yd. 818 fps
.030� choke: MV 1233 fps/ 40 yd 875 fps

https://books.google.com/books?id=P7UrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA235
1 1/8 oz. load comparisons. Pressures converted using Burrard's formula
42 gr. = 3 Dram Bulk Nitro � 1" chamber pressure 7,920 psi / MV 1208 fps
45 1/2 gr. = 3 1/4 Dram Nitro � 9,730 psi / MV 1,274
49 gr. = 3 1/2 Dram Nitro � 11,780 psi / 1,328 fps

So, he's saying a loss of about 15 fps in the first yard. How does that get us to a loss of 400 fps at 20 yards?

I have a book called "Shotshells and Ballistics" by John Taylor. I don't know the source of his figures, but he lists velocity--both muzzle and standard American 3 foot, out to 70 yards--for the majority of factory loads available at the time the book was published (2003). He gives true muzzle velocity of a 1330 fps load as 1436 fps. Velocity at longer ranges are similar to the numbers Miller posted.

Will somebody with a chrono please check the velocity at the muzzle, and then again at 3 feet, and report the findings? This isn't an unfathomable, the country is rampant with chronographs.

SRH

No. 7 1/2 1374 MV to 1300 3' = 74 fps



No. 8 1336 MV to 1263 3' = 73 fps

With a chronograph some spacing of the pickups are required in order to have a time/distance relationship. At 1200 fps with a one foot spacing you would read .00083 seconds. I do not know what the minimum time interval for modern chrono's is, but that might well be a limiting factor.

Time of flight over 20 yds for the 1330 fps load was .0548 secs, thus an average speed of 1095 fps (Read that as observed velocity over 20 yds)
Time of flight for the 1135 fops load over 20yds was .0626 secs for an average velocity of 958 fps. Thus a difference of 195 fps at the muzzle amouited to a difference of 137 fps at a point inside 10 yds. It is rather obvious loss came quicker above sonic than at any other point & that drag was not linear according to V�..

Interesting stuff. Thanks, Drew and Miller.

The old muzzle loader's mantra was 'Little powder, much lead, shoots far, kills dead!'

As for cartridges I went to the local black powder shoot (only about 10 or a dozen show up on a good day) and as it was a rainy day I though I would be a bit lazy and took along an old Harrison & Richardson 12 bore single and some Baikal cartridges that were supposed to be for 2 1/2" chambers. Number six shot but load not specified but I suspect 1 1/8th. ounce. I'd had them (stored correctly) for about 40 years. My goodness they were tooth rattlers. What the velocity was I have no idea but they bust the clays; in fact they just pulverized them! Fearsome things that I certainly would not use in a 2 1/2" chambered gun. I still have about 180 left. Any takers? Lagopus.....

According to a ballistics calculator I used, it seems that with #6 English shot, a 1255 fps muzzle velocity would give the roughly 1050 fps average over 20 yards. This is at an altitude of 500 feet, and a temperature of 68 degrees Fahrenheit, the actual average velocity I got was 1058 fps.

I wouldn't mind taking some of those off of your hands, PM me.