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Gents,

Opinions, please, as to these two patterns. ** Paging Dr. Drew Hause **





First is... 3-Iron Turkish? Oxford? (Please explain the nuances of which and why.)

Second is... American Flag? Are the "stars" not defined enough to be flag? What, then?

Thx for thoughts,

- Nudge

The best part of impersonating a Damascus pattern nomenclature authority is that there is no one living to explain how confused I am

Long version
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IHGMMB82PAgFIzHTeoepYvzzE1uqDZSC_MTWH8vv0fE/edit

We'll start at the bottom barrels, which are "Washington", Ferlacher Austria, or Bresilien.

The lopin is the 3rd on the bottom and note there is no 'star'



"American Flag" or "Star" is the first lopin, with a 'star'



Finished 3 iron "American Flag"



2 Iron "Washington"; no 'stars'



BUT Etoile' (star) and Remington 'Etoile 3.B.P.' had TINY stars within the scrolls



Which is different from "Turkish Star" which had alternating black (steel) and white (iron) 'stars' BETWEEN the scrolls

4 Iron "Turkish Star"

The top barrels are a little messy so about the best description is 3 Iron Damas Crolle'

�Oxford�, �London�, Damas Anglais, Damas fer de clous in Belgium and Ferlacher Hufnagel Damast in Austria are Fine Alternee, Large (2 Iron) or Medium (3 Iron) Scroll, Asymmetric, Annular Crolle

3 Iron "Oxford"



�Turkish� or Damas Crolle Turc ou Frise', Turkischer Damask, generic �Best Damascus� in England, and most �Fine� and �Extra-fine� Three and Four Iron patterns used by US makers is a Fine Alternee, Small Scroll, Symmetric, Annular Crolle
See http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_221fst4kndq

Parker Dam4 4 Iron "Turkish"



Parker 6 Iron "Turkish"

It's more difficult with British guns, likely wearing Belgian tubes, but without the creative naming. The British just went with 2 Stripe, 3 Stripe, and British Best. Both these are courtesy of Stephen Helsley
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20258609

Three Rod English Best "Oxford"
William Powell & Son 12b Bar-in-Wood hammer gun SN 7193 sold in 1880. The ledger describes the barrels as being "best damascus."



Three Rod English Best "Turkish"
William Powell & Son 16b Boxlock sold in 1886. The Powell ledger also states..."best damascus barrels."

Neither Parker nor Hunter Arms were especially creative either

Parker: The 1899 Catalog lists:
�Fine English Twist� on Quality T, S, R, P & N (and later as an option on VH guns)
�Fine Laminated Steel� on Quality I & H
�Fine Damascus� on Quality G, F, E, & D
�Fine Bernard� on Quality C
�Extra Fine Damascus� on Quality B
�Finest Damascus� on Quality A
See http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=19025099 for examples.

Post-1892 LC Smith:
F grade hammer gun: �English Stub Twist�
Quality No. 0 & 1: �Good Two Rod Damascus�
Quality No. 2, 3, 4 & A1: �Good Four Stripe Chain Damascus�
Quality No. 3, Pigeon, 4 and A1: �Fine Three Rod Damascus�
Quality No. 5: �Very Fine Damascus�,
Monogram: �Finest Three Rod Damascus�
A2: �Choice Three Rod Herring Bone Pattern.�
See http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery.fcgi?p=999&gid=17116222

But it really gets complicated with Remington which graded the Damascus barrels on Model 1894 guns as follows:
A Grade: �Two stripe Damascus� (Boston and Oxford)
B Grade: �Three stripe Damascus� (Oxford 4 S.J. and Chain J)
C Grade: �Finer Damascus� (Etoile and Washington)
D Grade: �Very fine Damascus� (Chine and Legia)
E Grade: �Finest Damascus� (Peiper and Ohonon)
See http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfg2hmx7_72xs856hdf

And Lefever also used LOTS of different patterns
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18020839

And BTW we're STILL waiting for one of our British correspondents to find the British Damascus Rosetta Stone
Yes, I have tried the Birmingham Proof House and the Birmingham Museum of Science and Industry. There are other museums in the Midlands I have not tried. Paul Stevens is keeping his eyes open also.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tXvObBOfgGpOKTh_jkttPcH1lKd--bfHY_sIjmr8uy8/edit

Dr. Drew,

You ARE the best.

These are both Lefevers, the top set have British proofs...the bottom set have Belgian "LLH."

So are you calling the top set 3-Iron Turkish or Crolle? And what on Earth is the difference?

- Nudge

How 'bout a sorta messy "Turkish" and is that the original contrast?!?
Any pattern with scrolls is crolle'

1890 F grade 3 Iron "Turkish" - ROUND (mostly) symmetric scrolls



1890 F grade 3 Iron "Oxford" - OBLONG asymmetric scrolls

A Lefever 20g GE "American Flag" (with the 'stars')

Only if you tell us how Pieper managed to get his name in the pattern

A bit of Lefever marketing hyperbole - AA "Finest A-1 Quality Silver Steel Damascus Highest Proof" courtesy of Richard Brewster. English Best 4 Iron 'Turkish' possibly by Sir Thomas Kilby.

Se�or Claw



"Remington Arms"

Dr. Drew,

The top set is original contrast "Fine Damascus" (C grade).

The bottom set were carefully re-browned by an old turkey hunter in Missouri. *s*

Thx for the input. No two things seem to stir more variance of opinions on this forum than "what Damascus pattern" and "which engraver."

- Nudge

Except for ...... which choke is best?

SRH

Always enjoy the damascus tutorials. I have to wonder how many meaningful "grades" there are when you just factor something like tensile strength. There are so many cosmetic variants that look very different but from a strength perspective probably perform near identically. Very interesting stuff.

Dan: the yet to be published pattern welded tensile testing study showed remarkable consistency between crolle patterns, admittedly a limited sample. The average tensile strength was 54,700 psi.

Sergei Aleksandrovich Buturlin published "The Shotgun and Shooting It" in 1929. Igor Robertovich very kindly translated his 1938 edition for me.
Buturlin cited studies conducted at TOZ (Tula Arms Plant) likely immediately before WWI and listed Damascus tensile strength as 56,900 � 68,250 psi; about 2/3 of period Seimens-Martin and about the same as Decarbonized Steel.

The 1891 Proof House Trial Report is summarized here also
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

I agree that the "quality" difference is primarily aesthetic. My thoughts
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YJxP1k3PzmtmrG1HEGxd8X6g0-1GL0KNY8WMIMkdKr0/edit

While we're on the subject, I would VERY much like to tensile test a segment of Bernard II barrel; would need about 3". Somebody's gotta have a C grade Parker they would like donate to science?

Very simple, he paid the rolling mill to do it! There is a general myth which goes something to the effect that each barrel maker made the pattern. That is simply not the case. The rolling mill would schedule runs of the patterns it had orders for. The barrel smith would pay the mill for the ribbons they needed. The barrel smith would then forge them into complete barrels

This accounts for the volume of damascus barrels produced by the Belgians. At the Curtius Museum (Mus�e Curtius) in Liege are 2 films spliced into one that are constantly running showing the complete process from rolling mill to final gun.

As for Pieper, I am confident he never stood at an anvil in his life.

Pete

Now that makes sense. It would certainly reduce the amount of flawed ribbons that might cause the tubes to fail proof. It would also be a huge labor savings as well, as opposed to the individual smiths forging their own ribbons. It also explains the relative consistency found in the patterns. Great post.

It also "begs the question" that the English smiths may have bought ribbons from Belgium.

Regards
Ken

I stand amazed at the mechanical and artistic genius that could design a lopin, send the specs to a rolling mill, twist the rods and hammer weld them into a ribband, and then turn the ribband into a masterpiece that looks like this...and that accomplishes its intended purpose!

It's also fascinating when you consider the specs necessary for lighter barrels and sub gauges. I've done several Heuse Riga-Fils sub gauge sets, the taper and proportional sizes of their 20 and 16 gauge tubes (small scroll 2-iron) are wonderful. It goes equal or more so with small frame Parker sets, and they're even more complicated 3-iron.

Regards
Ken

I am glad to see the conversation drifting towards the rolling mills. It was there that the quality materials were selected, organized into determined patterns, and through innumerable heats and rollings were welded and drawn into the ribbands commonly thought of. Rolling mills were highly complex operations from which almost all metal objects began their journey to useful artifacts. And they date back into antiquity, possibly a thousand years or more.

The original "hand rolled" mill

"The Forge of Vulcan" by Luca Giordano



Then came water powered trip hammers

"Venus at the Forge of Vulcan" Jan Brueghel the Younger of Antwerp, Belgium c. 1605



Right foreground



Still in use in Liege c. 1910



Saugus Iron Works
https://www.nps.gov/sair/learn/historyculture/rolling-and-slitting-mill.htm

Then the man-powered and (later) steam powered rolling machines

Henry Cort's rolling machine, 1783
http://shropshirehistory.com/iron/iron_making.htm

Sheet mills
http://www.metalworkingworldmagazine.com/a-short-sheet-metal-history/

"The Iron Rolling Mill", Adolph Menzel, "Modern Cyclops", 1875

Whenever I picture Vulcan I think of Oliver Reed in The Adventures of Baron Munchausen. Uma Thurman played Venus.

One more from L.C. Smith, an 0 Grade:




Not Washington or American Flag. Looks like window frames.

John

Possibly a messy Washington John, but I have no clue. I've got it as a No. 2

Dr. Gaddy's "Washington" sample segments

Monthly Consular and Trade Reports, �Report by Consul Robertson on the Manufacture of Fire-Arms in the District of Verviers and Liege�, 1885
https://books.google.com/books?id=7EhJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA136&lpg
States the lopin was stacked by the barrel maker, then sent to the rolling mill.
Also a report of worker's earnings and cost of materials and rolling.

No doubt generic Damas Crolle was made in big batches by the rolling mills for supply to the many "rough forged tube" and finished barrel makers.

More information here, and an image of a rolling mill provided by Joe
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=387875&page=all

Water wheel driven slitting and rolling mill, Sweden, 1734



La Houilles foundry, France: sheet rolling mill powered by a hydraulic wheel. Published in Magasin Pittoresque, Paris, 1850

W.W. Greener, "Book of Gunnery", 1858
https://books.google.com/books?id=A4TPW796iD8C&pg=PA154

Guys who work with hot metal have my utmost respect.

My dad once told me that 'you ain't seen a mess until you've seen a cobble in a rolling mill'.

Q: Has centrifugal casting ever been used in shotgun tube making?

I saw this comment in this older thread:
Colt: An American Legend by RL Wilson shows the "Capt. D.H. Ross" 1883 hammerless with "COLT" within the damascus pattern.

Doublegun Thread

I have Wilson's book on Colt guns. The photo caption states; "for display a set of barrels was made with the tiny word COLT encircling the tubes".

The photo shown of this gun, does not show this set of tubes with the COLT word in it. The gun is mounted with a set of three iron Crolle tubes.

Has anyone actually seen this set of COLT word damascus tubes, or a photo of it?

And this masterpiece
http://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/65/3063/belgium-double-barrel#detail





Bro. Steve, have you figured out the lopin yet?

Yes. I know how these word Damascus patterns are made. I'm plotting a post, to answer the question about how Pieper got his name in the pattern.

I don't remember seeing the A. Arthur barrel before. I'm interested in finding photos of any known barrels with words in the pattern. I've got Gramme, Pieper, Remington and now this Arthur. I thought I had seen the Colt in one of the books in my library; but I have so many books.... Haven't found it yet.

I would appreciate any large format images of any of these barrels! Some of the images that I have are not high quality.

There is a Parker with another name entwined. Maybe someone who knows about it will chime in. I think the name was Terrell.

Not a great image. Terell was reported to be a Parker "rough forged tube" buyer/agent in Liege.

AAHE 16 ga. SN 11292X

Thanks for the Terell barrel pic, Drew! I've saved it to my computer. Will try to clean it up. If there are any high resolution photos available of any of these word pattern barrels, it would help me out a lot.

I'll work up a post on how word pattern barrels were made. Maybe will start a new thread, when I have it ready. It will take me some time to create computer generated images to explain the process, so it will be a bit before I have it ready.

There's some interesting similarities between these barrels; and also some interesting differences. I'm curious if there is any information about the makers of them.

Also wonder if anyone knows the present location of the D.H. Ross gun, with the Colt barrels. And whether the Colt word barrel set is with it. If I'm going to do this thread, it would be nice to have it include all known examples of this damascus pattern technique.

Wow, Steve! If you're able to pull this off with the help of your computer it will be a tremendous addition to our knowledge of the art of damascus. Looking forward to your report!

I've been baffled by the lettering for years, one theory I came up with was that the letters were in the pack in the same way the letters are put into seaside rock (sweet sugary holiday treat on this side of the pond - see link attached) I'd imagine the letters would be lost during the twisting though. I'm intrigued and look forward to reading the post by Steve when it's ready.


https://www.promotionalcandy.com/products/thank-you-rock-sweets/

Glad there is interest in seeing how these patterns were made. Putting together an explaination for these patterns is something that I have been working on for a while. I intended to write a book, explaining how all of the barrel damascus patterns were made. Kind of thought I might be able to get some money for the little bit of marketable knowledge that I have. Posting the information to this forum may be cutting into my retirement income.

I'll be using several different software applications to create the sketches and illustrations for this thread. One application has just recently become available to me and it will greatly reduce the work required to create the illustrations. This software is called Thor II. (Yes, there was an earlier first version of Thor). Thor was created by a blacksmith from Germany. His name is Christian Schnura. The Thor software is able to illustrate what a twisted damascus pattern will look like, after a sketch of the billet arrangement is loaded to the software. This thread will be a great place to introduce Thor to the readers of this forum. I'll post in the thread where to download Thor II and instructions for how to use it.

Please let me know of any information available on ANY barrels with words in the damascus pattern.

Bro. Steve has an amazing video of his Bernard damascus barrel fabrication, from stacking the lopin to finished product, with relevant snippets from La Fabrication des Canons Damas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFrZulegvFs

Additional commentary regarding his 2 Iron crolle barrel here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jQPuv4yOXpTppdXkAiyGj6LC5bXDAYBCR1DME9lB0JM/edit

Steve, if you're planning to write a book on it I'd be happy to wait.
Good luck.

Some interesting facts about damas:

http://heuse.spahistoire.info/chinhotcanondamas.html

also about the "letter" pattern

"Quelques uns parvinrent � agencer les diff�rents m�taux de la masse de mani�re � faire ressortir une inscription dans le dessin du damas, par exemple : � L�opold II Roi des Belges �" what means: Some succeeded in arranging the various metals of the mass in such a way as to bring out an inscription in the design of Damascus, for example: "Leopold II King of the Belgians"

The secret lies in "arranging the various metals.."

I would really like to see this pattern!

cheers,
Gunwolf

Thanks for posting the link to my video, Bro. Drew. I created this video at the request of the Boot Hill Museum, in Dodge City, KS. The museum has some damascus barreled antique guns that they would like to display. They asked me to create a video for them to show in the museum, documenting how these barrels were made. Because of my work with damascus barrels, they also seem to feel that I am a noteworthy Kansan. So, they wished for the video to also include my work.



No worries. Writing and publishing the book is a ways off. I'm happy to share this information now. Probably will take a few weeks to pull it together.

"a noteworthy Kansan"

Not a lot of competition but you are one

Then again there was the "Goat Gland Doctor"
https://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/brinkley.html

I wonder if the gun with those tubes resides in the Belgian Royal Collection?

I just sent an inquiry to the Belgian association of arms collectors, if I get a response I'll post it.

Regards
Ken