doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Market Status...

I was talking with the manager of a local gunshop that specializes in collectibles and older shotguns. He says the market for older American SxS is currently very soft; and also weak for Browning A-5's. Much more so than in recent years. He Had probably two dozen (plus) Parkers, Sterlingworths, Remingtons, SxS, etc. on the racks with little movement, at what I thought were reasonable prices. And he had about 10 A-5's in various condition. In prior years, those A-5's and Sterlingworth's priced under $1k would have moved quickly.

I suspect much of this is age related. I often shoot at several sporting clay ranges. The younger guys (under 40, of which there are many) all seem to shoot O/U's or modern semi-autos with choke tubes. The only guys that I see shooting SxS's have more gray hair than I do -- or no hair at all.

Its not surprising that Spanish SxS makers, such as Ugartechea and Arrieta are going broke. These younger shooters seem unlikely to lay out $4k to $10k for a new SxS.

The times, they are a changing...

gold40

I hear this story over and over. I do not discredit it or intend to be argumentative. I ask what has really changed?
I am 37 and have been heavy on side by sides since I figured out I could "afford one" 12 years or so now. That said I am not buying Sterlingworths or a-5s.
Now, I would say more than 50% of people in my circle ( work, friends, family ) are gun owners - less than 10% hunt and 0% have a side by side. That zero percent includes every person I have hunted with including my dad and grandads friends and hunting buddies.
So what's changing ?

There's a learning curve involved.

In my case, I took up shooting at age 23 with a Remington 1100 simply because it was all I could afford and pay the rest of the bills too.

Next gun was an O/U.

I managed to live without a SxS shotgun until age 40 or so when my income level marginally improved and I chose to explore additional aspects of the hobby.

There are no end of places where the time and resources expended since then could have gone.

It's a hobby for a special kind of idiot. Not everyone qualifies.

As for A5's, the market went nuts when the gun was discontinued and asking prices were unrealistic for quite some time.

Another take on it is that buyers that are left are more educated as far as value. What were the shop's prices? Were they realistic, or typically overpriced? You know, a 10% gun at a 60% price.

Regards
Ken

The market is very soft for doubles unless in great condition or rather rare. Cash is again king in buying doubles or pumps.

The market for old SxSs isn't going to get any better because fewer buyers and more guns brought to the market are not a good combination. I recommend mass-produced O/Us as game guns to new upland hunters. Beretta made some good ones in 12ga with steel receiver and weight as low as 6.5lb. The smaller gauges weigh even less. Another good one would be Winchester 6500 "hunter" with 70mm chambers and Winchokes. If one doesn't mind fixed chokes old Mirokus with double triggers are fine choice.

Jaegermeister, while I agree the market for low end Field grade side by sides is soft, that fact represents bargains available to new shooters. Not a reason to stay away. Quality guns can be purchased for good prices.

Not sure why why you are unable to recommend a decent SXS, how often do you use either a SXS versus a Berreta O/U?

In line with Marks 21, I do not think the world is changing that much in that SXS have been a minority fringe market for a long time. But that is true for many quality luxury goods.

High end guns will hold their value. Low and mid range guns will continue to be good guns for the money.

Small local gunshop had six Model 12s before Christmas. I bought the best of the lot that was beyond beat, I'll get a pic up, went back after Christmas, all of them were gone.

When I asked, the owner said, "We can't keep them in here."

Geez Jagermeister, with the market for side by side doubles being so soft, one would think you could finally afford to buy one lousy double gun. Did your local gun shop have to buy flood insurance because of you drooling on their counters?

So tell us, why does a guy who doesn't own a single double spend so much time spewing bullshit on a double gun forum? And please tell us more about repackaging shotgun shells in Grex buffer, and what advantage there is to repackaging shells in Grex. If you can't do that, please tell us why you feel the need to make shit up in order to make people think you actually know anything about guns and shooting. I think you should stick to things you know such as stuffed toy animals and kishka. Who did steal the kishka anyway?

The sense I get is that American classic smallbores still move pretty well at reasonable prices. When you look at what's available, you see lots of 12's--which is understandable since far more 12's were made. I think it's even truer with Brit doubles, where there's an even greater spread between 12's made vs smallbores.

The smaller gauges move well. LGS had PA A.H. Fox 'Sterlingworth' 16ga with medium weight barrels with Whiteline recoil pad and poorly installed single non-selective trigger of origin not known to me. I passed on the gun because the inertia trigger did not work right. It sold quickly despite $1400 price tag. They also had 16ga West German Sauer, pre-WWII 16ga Simson, German Merkel 147 20ga. All sold in reasonable time and not for give away prices. The 12ga offerings seem to linger on.

The LGS said that the sun gauges are becoming more and more popular. I see 20ga sxs's come and go through that shop all the time, so they are moving.

12ga on the other hand...

"sun gauges"?

"sub"

SRH

I thought maybe fair weather guns as opposed to rain guns.

These little typos may be the result of device's "autocorrect" functions. I'm constantly having to go back and correct my text before posting. It appears they were programmed by people only semi-literate, and with a small vocabulary.

Regards
Ken

That's correct, I made my comment via the omnipotent IPhone. Sorry I didn't catch it, whether it was a predictive text fail or a fat-fingered keyboard.

SUB gauges.

Maybe some shooters eyes and brain just cannot handle seeing more than one barrel?

After learning to shoot and hunt with a single shot .410, my grand son tried my 1900 Parker 20 and a Repro 20, and a Weatherby Orion 20 and picked the latter. He became a good clays shooter with the Orion and has now graduated to an Orion 12 and does well with it.

Go figure?

One of the U.K. Dealers I have patronized provides a newsletter to his clients which occasionally contains an apprisal of the market. Below is an excerpt from his fall 2016 newsletter:

"The market in the gun world has become polarised with little interest in hammer guns boxlocks & lesser known sidelocks.
Condition has become paramount & those that are not all original or have defects such as thin barrel walls do not sell except at a very reduced price."

Fairly succinct apprisal of the market in general.

So is this the time for me to buy a long barreled Lindner Daly 12 ga. hammer gun?

SRH

That seems to only leave "greater" or "better" known sidelocks...I am no economist, but that sounds like a completely depressed market with a few exceptions.

Stan, if you need an excuse, now is the time for that Linder! The dealer whom I quoted deals in "better" sidelocks almost exclusively, Purdey, Boss, and H&H. He recently put up 10 new guns on his site. 4 sold within 48 hours, 2 sold within one week, 3 sold within the first month, and only 1 is still listed. He is selling them around the world with one nearly new pair of H&H going to Russia, and another to Texas.

Stan it is always a good time to buy that kind of gun.

I think we're actually coming into a great time to acquire collectible guns, because Baby Boomers are starting to pass away, and clearly not all those guns will get passed down. There are less and less gun owners to pass down to!

It doesn't necessarily mean their graded guns are going to sell at cheaper prices...but at least it should mean more guns just AVAILABLE to be bid for.

In this sense I think the only market that's likely to finally be in trouble is the lower end of famous makers. Sterlingworths, VHE's, L.C. Smith Field grades...these guns have all benefited from the same consumer impulse that drives people to buy a Mercedes C class (or a Cadillac Cimerron!). People like to chase the great names, so they chase a dollar price, and the inventory availability, of that name they want. And it's been like this for a long time. But I wonder if Boomer guns coming to market will let the air out of the lower grade guns, because there will be a greater inventory of 'better' guns available to chase.

And I'm talking about 'collectible guns,' not 'shooters.' People tend not to overpay for the shooters. It's that 1st or 2nd time buyer collector, though, who I think drives the price of nicer condition low grade guns. ** BTW, I was one of these...my first purchase was an excellent original condition LC Smith field grade 12 ga 28" gun. She was a beauty, and I paid the high end of any I had watched sell before. And I was ok with that...until I bought Stubbendieck's book and realized they made 200,000 of them! So I sold it for what I paid, and started to be more patient, and more discerning.**

Oh btw, I literally cannot remember the last time I saw someone with a lever gun at my range, nor do I know a single hunter who uses one. So I wonder if the same logic applies to these as well. Sure, that Kornbrath engraved Winchester is always going to be bid for...but the base ones that have had more different guys leave their marks on them than Pam Anderson...? I wonder.

-- Nudge

Nudge,
While I have little interest(except in Marlin rimfire guns) I can assure the Lever gun market is very strong. Our Colorado Gun Collectors show coming up next month seems to be about 60% Winchester lever guns. They do sell.

The low end, anything with thin walls or defects are currently a very tough sell though I do sell quite a few entry level Birmingham BLNE's, just not at the prices they fetched in the past.

SKB,

My supposition about a potential weaker market was just for the low end stuff. But I didn't just mean poor condition. I see, and have seen many of the 3 doubles I mentioned selling with high 2 to high 3 handles. And I don't mean sub gauges. We're talking VHE 12 ga #2 frame kind of stuff.

Any gun they made 50,000...100,000...200,000 of -- isn't going to be rare even 100 years from now. Clearly, this is of no concern to the buyer who just wants a nice old gun to go to his club with and NOT be ANOTHER guy with a Silver Hawk. But from a 'collectible' standpoint...that's what my point is aimed at.

-- Nudge

Here is my observation. Entry level extractor 12ga guns follow the economy and consumer confidence. Consumer confidence has rebounded to the highest level in years. I sold more entry level guns in the 1st 1/4 of this year than I sold in the past 4 years.

As far as young shooters not shooting SxS goes this is nothing new. 45 years ago I was the only one I knew shooting SxSs.

The guys buying the entry level guns tend to be 55 to 70 years old and getting in to there disposable income years. Lots of boomers coming into this group.

As far as Restoration, I doubled the size of my current barrel run within the first two weeks after the election. 95% are from mid-grade guns or higher. I've already got almost enough sets for another run, which will go back-to-back.

Regards
Ken

Looking forward to getting my set back from Ken's post election run. Glad to hear my barrels are in good company. Ha.

It seems the market for the Super-Fox is smokin" hot right now!!

Limited supply helps. The fact that you can not upgrade a gun into a HE helps a lot. Then there is the mystique of holding a gun just like Mr. Buck used. Just a nostalgic connection to the past stronger than most. Isn't Bo Whop one of the most famous fox doubles every made? Owning a twin to many is as near as they can get to that period. If they would have allowed me to shoot ducks with lead shot I'd still have mine. In a moment of weakness I sold it. My mistake judging by current prices.