doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com NOT using this gun at Grousemas anymore!

. Exactly Ted.....it's the Indian and not the arrow. You already told us you harvest just as many grouse with this gun as your other guns. What are your other guns?? Cylinder bore?? BTW, you have told us you hunt grouse with a slinged gun. Well, as a seasoned grouse hunter I have a hard time wrapping myself around that since most grouse hunters are at the ready the majority of the time, and you hunt with a sling. How do you dismount that slinged gun after the flush and still need a cylinder choked gun?? I'm confused on that for sure! Back to your 23 yard pattern, you did not draw a circle around the densest part of your pattern and present us with the given diameter. It is mere speculation as to what choke your gun has without more data. I still would recommend you pattern your gun at 40 yards, draw a 30" circle around the most dense portion of the shot charge and then calculate the efficiency. You can pattern at 23 yards, but you really need to tell us more (i.e., densest diameter at that yardage keeping in mind that ic has close to 100% efficiency at 20 yards). So, maybe cylinder choke is best for early season grouse, but I'm not convinced of that. If your gun is slinged all the time and you are shooting birds on the wing with a slinged gun, then I'm guessing cylinder choke is not the ticket for you since it takes quite a long time to get ready for the shot from the slinged shotgun attitude. On the other hand and if the birds are shot out of trees or on the timber trails/roads, then a full choke might be your best friend (that is, if that's how you hunt grouse)?????

It's a hobby, do what enjoy the most.

Yours is an admirable attitude, which I can appreciate. Moreover, I never suspected otherwise. It just seems a little late to start patterning it and deciding it is choked too tight, after using it for the "last few seasons", however many that is. You measured the muzzles' i.d.s and felt comfortable they were in the IC and Mod range. Did you not consider that to be mighty tight for under 25 yard shooting, even without pattern verification? I would have just thought you would have been suspicious of too tight patterns before now. If it is worth shooting patterns to evaluate now, it should have been worth it before hunting it, I would think.

I guess I just don't understand the late motivation. Anyway, better late than never.

All the best, SRH

Not quite. Its the Indian with a good arrow.

Under early season conditions hunting Grouse you cannot have your right barrel choked that tight. Similar to late season pheasants with a cylinder bore. Like I said, even a good Indian needs a good bow and arrow to hit something.

And that is what he's saying that the right barrel on his 20 gauge is not set up for early season grouse. But if you hit something Ted with that pattern my hats off to ya.

ok treb...Ted now has a good arrow. Early season Ruffed Grouse beware!

Danre it....

Arrow no good without bow string....


Just like grouse gun no good hanging from ones shoulder on sling unless he shoot grouse out of tree.

Keemosabee say you shoot Darne it no matter....might well as have old bolt action shoot gun.

Ted, I can't measure the spread of your patterns from the pictures. My preference in grouse and woodcock guns, especially early season, is little or no choke in the open barrel. The tight one isn't as important on an early season gun because, as you observed, you don't get that many second barrel shots. I currently have a Francotte 16 that measures .002 R and .016 L, or not much more than cyl and mod. If I shot it better and if I didn't have a 28ga Parker Repro choked Q 1 & 2, it'd be a good grouse gun.

But just eyeballing your patterns, I'd bet that a 30" circle would cover 100% of both. The 2nd pattern, maybe a 20" circle.
If your choke were either cyl or skeet, you'd have quite a few hits outside the 30" circle. Cyl should give you about a 70% pattern at 25 yards; skeet, a little more than 80%. IC, at a bit less than 90%, will have some hits outside as well. Mod will put the entire pattern inside the circle at 25 yards, as (obviously) will full. Again only eyeballing, but I'd say that's what you have in that Darne.

With most woodcock shots coming well under 25 yards early in the season, I don't think I'd want to hit a doodle with even your open pattern. If I were to shoot a gun choked that tight for the game you're playing and didn't want to use spreaders, I'd go with very light loads--7/8 or even 3/4 oz--of 7 1/2's. Probably won't give you more spread, but will give you less density.

Makes me wish I was 35 and not 75. Guns don't bag grouse and woodcock-legs do, including our 4 legged pals afield. If I were in the upland shooting life again (GBE given due applause) I would use the only small bore double I own- a Utica Fox Sterlingworth 20 gauge- 28"barrels open choked, DT, EJ- 2&3/4" chambers- original factory stock dims- I bought it 7 years ago from a "retired" MI grouse gunner, well worn but no rust or dented barrels or heavily scratched up buttstock- I had planned to use it for the ill-fated MI dove season that never got underway. When my oldest grandson turns 14, I am going to give it to him.

I have never formally pattern tested any of my doubles, or my Model 12's on paper. Being a farm boy at heart, i just step off some paces from any available rusted out grain wagons or oil tanks that abound on the family farm back lots where I shoot pigeons and woodchucks in Spring and Summer months, usually with older paper shells-never with expensive steel shot loads- and see what impact and spread results. As long as I can drop grave yard dead waterfowl under 30 yards and closing, to me, the pattern spread, "Machts Nicht"--but I am not an upland gunner nowadays--

Good discussion though. I would sometimes pattern my left barrel to see how far my shotgun was throwing its pattern. I very rarely if ever patterned the right barrel assuming that it was throwing an open pattern.

Also, just don't use the standard 30 inch circle at 40 yards but move the patterning board to reflect hunting conditions during a particular time of year.

Of course I could have used this information a whole lot more forty years ago.