doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 3 inch ammo

Trying to settle a question elsewhere - what year was the 3" 12ga ammo introduced?
TIA

DuPont Trophy Oct 24 & 25, 1895
Capt. John L. Brewer was using a Greener gun of high grade. His shells were the U.M.C. Trap, 3 1/4 inches long, 4 Drams of DuPont (Bulk) powder by measure; one trap wad, two pink felts, 1/4 inch 11-gauge wad and one ordinary 12-gauge pink edge wad over the powder and 1 1/4 ounces of No. 7 chilled shot; the shell had a very hard square crimp.

Fred Gilbert (1865-1928) was one of the world�s best known shooters of his time, using a L.C. Smith to win the DuPont World�s Pigeon Shooting Championship in 1895 and the "E. C." Inanimate Target Championship Cup in 1896. Von Lengerke & Antoine Co. marketed a Winchester 12 gauge Live Bird load with a picture of Gilbert on the box marked SPECIAL WADDING GILBERT, 3 inch, 3 1/4 Drams DuPont, and 1 1/4 Ounces (1220 fps) No. 7 T.C. shot.



1898 Grand American Handicap at Live Birds
E.D. Fulford, the winner, used a Remington hammerless gun weighing 7 3/4 lbs., 3 1/2 drams �Schultze� powder in U.M.C. Trap shells, three inches in length; 1 1/4 oz. No. 7 shot, a Union Metallic Cartridge Co. factory load.
Mrs. W.P. Shattuck was one of the participants (and) for a woman shoots a rather heavy charge. She uses an L.C. Smith gun weighing 7 3/4 pounds, 3 1/4 drams of DuPont powder 1 1/4 ounces No. 7 1/2 shot, in first barrel, and 3 1/2 drams, 1 1/4 ounces No. 7 shot in second barrel; loaded in a 3-inch Leader shell.

A 1903 UMC salesman�s catalogue shows paper 12 gauge shells available in 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3, and 3 1/4 inch lengths (courtesy of Researcher).

The Super-X 3 inch 12 gauge shell with 1 3/8 oz of shot and the 2 3/4 inch 3 3/4 dram equivalent 1 1/4 oz load (1330 fps) were both introduced in 1922. Winchester/Western brought out the 12 gauge 3 inch magnum with 1 5/8 oz of shot in 1935, the same year as the introduction of the Model 12 Heavy Duck gun.

In reviewing old Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogues and price lists, the first time I see mention of extra length paper shot shell cases is in the 1880 catalogue, before they were even offering loaded shot shells. Smokeless powder loaded shot shells begin appearing in the 1891 catalogue. While the �standard� 12-gauge shells were in 2 5/8 or 2 3/4 inch lengths, the �standard� 16-gauge was 2 9/16 inch and the �standard� 20-gauge was 2 1/2 inch, paper 12-gauge shells were offered in 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch lengths; 16-gauge shells in 2 9/16, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch lengths; and 20-gauge shells in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch lengths.

From the 1890s into the early 1920s, these longer shot shells didn't carry a heavier payload than one could get in a 2 3/4 inch 12-gauge shell, just more/better wadding, which many serious Pigeon shooters believed to be an advantage.

Ah Ha!
That would explain why my British live pigeon 12g from the teens has a 3" chamber & 1 1/4 Oz shot proof.
It also explains why another British live pigeon 12g gun I have, that is 1925-26 manufacture is chambered 3" with 1 1/2 Oz shot weight proof.
O.M

Moses: Wm. Cashmore Pigeon gun

That is an old one Drew.
Damascus, black powder & 3 1/4 cases.
Approx what year ?
O.M

Not mine but looks to be 1887 - 1896 by proofmarks. Laminated steel barrels.

What most people don't understand is that those longer shells were long to give more wadding as much as to deliver a heavier payload. Before plastic wads came into heavy use in the 60's getting tight patterns was much harder to achieve. We often fight too tight patterns where they were always fighting to make them tighter.

I should have included -- from our North American ammunition manufacturers -- in that statement. What some of the old time shooters stuffed in them who knows?



The 2 3/4 inch 1 1/4 ounce 12-gauge and one ounce 20-gauge Super-X loads were introduced in 1922. The 2 9/16 inch 1 1/8 ounce 16-gauge Super-X load was introduced shortly thereafter. The 3-inch Super-X load with 1 3/8 ounce of shot don't show up on the Western Cartridge Co. price lists until 1923. A.H. Fox Gun Co. included this slip in their catalogs and Super-Fox brochures when the progressive burning powder 12-gauge 3-inch Super-X loads finally came out --



Edited to change date shown in red, previously misstated as 1925.

This is so true, and a fact of history, but the why of it is what is so intriguing to me. I believe it is because of a change in the shotgunners, from then to now. From what I can read and understand there was a striving for excellence in shotgunning, in the bygone days, that no longer exists in many ways. Those shotgunners set unbelievable records at shooting matches around the world. They strove for better, and tighter, patterns because they believed they were able to utilize them to kill game more efficiently. And they were able to. Because ...... they worked at their sport, or their "craft" as was the case with the top shooters. They used single and two shot guns, and they hated to waste a shell with a miss.

Contrast that attitude with today's attitude of the average shotgunner. The average shotgunner today cannot hit what he's shooting at, flying, 30% of the time. And, the worst part, and the part that pertains to this diatribe, he doesn't care !!! Buy more shells, shoot more times at the bird with a semiautomatic, and complain to the others after the shoot, I just can't hit anything. Hell no you can't, because you don't ever try to improve. Misses are caused by mistakes. If you don't go to the trouble to get someone to help you find out what those mistakes are you will keep right on making them. Almost nobody really works at improving their shotgunning. They just complain and accept that missing 70% of the time is the best they can do.. I see this at the club everytime I go. The same guys, who are not handicapped in any physical way, seem okay just to miss over and over and over. And come right back next week to do the same, again.

And, not only the realm of shotgunning, but American society in general. America has been "dumbing down" for many years ....... accepting mediocre performance in all areas as "good enough". Compare the m/l baseball players physiques to those of 40-100 years go. Many pitchers are so badly overweight it's embarrassing. How about education? We won't even go there, but suffice it to say that we have created an atmosphere in America where lackadaisical performance is perfectly alright, even encouraged in some areas in the name of "acceptance of all". I am afraid this has crept into shotgunning, and is now getting firmly implanted.

So, what's the upshot of all this? Most people today do not believe that a target, or a dove, or a duck can be cleanly taken at the ranges our forefathers regularly killed them ........with inferior ammunition!! We opt for more open patterns to make up for our inability to place that pattern where it should be. We have the best guns and ammo ever produced, capable of the best shotgunning ever known to man ...... but we can't, for the most part utilize it. Sad commentary indeed.

SRH

Stan, I think part of the two tight patterns is because of plastic wads. Guns which struggled to throw 60% patterns with period ammo now throw 70-75% patterns. Then the decline of two barrel guns, with two different chokes hurt. Not having a more open choke, to make near shots much easier, shooters elect to just go with an open choke to start with. Then with the decline of good dog work, pass shooting birds at a distance are much harder for people to find so they tend to not take those long shots which I use practice as a kid. We would shoot black birds, grackles and pigeons as they flew by at 30-50 yards. Great fun and a great learning experience.

Oh, I agree completely that plastic shot cups is the biggest reason. The main point I was trying to make is that what we have today our forefathers would have loved to have had. And that they could have better utilized it than most can today. 'Cause they were more driven to excel.

SRH

Thanks for the clarification Researcher. I've got 1924 for the 3" here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17318961

1923 Hunter-Trader-Trapper introducing the Smith LRWF; mentions 3"chamber



1924 now "special 3-inch shell"



1925 letter claiming loss of pattern % with the 2 3/4" Super-X in the 3" chamber

Fear of their families going hungry is a powerful motivation. Also men. Just wanted to get ahead on their own merits. Men knew hard work, were not afraid of work and expected to work hard to get what they desired. My father, who grew up on a farm during the Depression, was still working 60 hour weeks into his 90's in his business. Men of that age just did it instead of watching others or waiting for government help. Classic example was the New Orleans people who have still not rebuilt their homes after a hurricane a decade ago, because they think the Government should do it for them. That's today's help me generation. Those born after 1960, who grew up ith free love and free time to smoke dope or practice free love as my Gradmother use to say.

We have dumbed down our education system to give failure an exceptable label. Lazy is no longer a bad thing to be called because others just say that someone lacked motivation. God help you if your Doctor got into medical or dental school as a marginal student, based on today's education system, because they will not flunk them out. They will spoon feed them even if it takes them six or seven years to complete a four year degree.

It is the same with sports. Parents don't want to keep score in games. Everyone is given the same size trophy so they all feel like winners. No wonder they lack effort. What's the point when the all get the same reward.

I like shooting with average and even bad shooters. Many are willing to learn if given a little help. Just a few minutes can improve their score by five or more birds a round. Might not sound like much to some but to them it is and they help pay the bills. If only master class shooters came out every club in the US would go under. Beside some of them might have a pretty sister or a nice place to duck hunt.

Researcher's green memo from the Fox company is a bit strange. The wording would indicate that 3" shells are proper for any Super Fox when a large percentage of Super Foxes were chambered to use 2 3/4" shells.

Didn't take long for a good "kids today" rant

It should be noted even the "7 year plan" med students have to pass the COMLEX (Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Licensing Examination) or (USMLE) United States Medical Licensing Examination before being allowed to inflict themselves on an unknowing public.

Here in AZ we just fake it
http://www.abc15.com/news/local-news/inv...5-investigation

I misspoke on my earlier post. There was only a year wait for the 12-gauge 3-inch Super-X load to become available. The 2 3/4 inch 1 1/4 ounce 12-gauge load and the 1 ounce 20-gauge loads came out first in 1922, with the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge load coming out just a bit later. The 3-inch 12-gauge Super-X load was available in 1923 --



The 2 1/2 inch .410-bore Super-X load appeared in the 1924/5 price lists. I don't have any Western Cartridge Co. paper from 1926, but by the January 1, 1927, price list the 2 7/8 inch 10-gauge Super-X load of 1 5/8 ounce of shot is included.

Does anyone here own one of those Hunter Arms LC Smith long range guns ?
If so, could you please report on the 80 yard range thing.
O.M

Spring 2013 "Double Gun Journal" Volume 24, Issue 1, p. 137

Pattern testing by David Williamson with .042" choke 32" LRWF at a measured 80 yards using 3 inch Winchester (plastic) hull with 38.35 grains of Blue Dot, Winchester 209 primer, Winchester AASL wad, and 1 3/8 ounces of #5 nickel plated shot.
The average number of pellets was 246 and measured weight 1.353 ounce. Number of pellets in duck for 3 shots: 5,6 & 6.
Pattern % in 30" circle: 5.3 = 13 pellets, 8.1 = 20 pellets & 8.5 = 21 pellets.



Maybe a Davis Hy-Power would do better The shell headstamp is "Western Record" NO idea about the "parchment paper capsule that extends beyond the chamber into the bore of the gun."!?!?

Thank you Drew.
Not enough pellets in the bird for my liking.
Energy & penetration are becoming questionable out there too.
80 yard crippler.
O.M

And besides, a little Pi R2 finagling shows that if the pattern is even at 80 yards given 8% in a 30 inch circle, it should be about 8.5 feet in diameter.

So, there's really nothing to this 80 yard shooting business.

At 900 fps average shot speed, and 40 mph duck speed, the duck on a 90% deflection shot moves about 15 feet during the time of flight of the shot. Since you only have to point to within roughly 6 feet of the eventual position of the target to get 5 pellets on the duck, it's wonder the shot can be missed.

8% patterns are clearly the key, and we've been wrong about striving for 70% patterns and 40 yard shots. Stupid us!

Stan: At one of my clubs here they replaced a hard wired 5-stand controller that while far from problem free at least could be made to work with a radio release POS that causes delay after delay while they try to get 8 receivers to actually receive.

One of the touted benefits of the new system was that it was incapable of keeping score, and thus the operator would no longer be announcing scores during rotation and thus 'embarrassing' the shooters.

I referred to this as our new 'No Shooter Left Behind' program.

Oh, the shame of it all. I just can hardly believe the changes since I was a kid. My Dad was a stickler for doing a job well ..... "Any job worth doing is worth doing well". And he would not tolerate the "I can't" attitude. "Can't never could" was his mantra whenever he saw me approaching giving up on something. Somehow, in spite of my rebellious nature, it stuck. I never stop trying to improve, never stop trying to figure out why I missed a bird. Some would say I am obsessed, but that is not true. I am just driven to improve.

Forgive me when I have a hard time understanding those who accept mediocrity. There's room for all of us, I guess. Even if we're not all wired alike.

SRH

Many thanks for all the replies.

Stan I too had a father who did not accept that something could not be done. With enough leverage, effort or planning whatever needed to be done simply had to get done. And he was right. I came to understand all the mental effort to find reasons to fail would be better spent trying to find that peice of pipe so I could get the job done. Amazing what lessons dads can teach sons sometimes.

About keeping scores, many years ago I had a fellow club member who was always trying to beat me at everything. One shoot I had a hundred and he had that bridesmaid 99. While drinking a few beers later he proclaimed that it was only a matter of time before he'd be beating me to which I replied that I never kept score when I shot? Do you I asked? Yes he did he said and asked why I did not. You can not break 100 you can only break one at a time so your only score to worry about is a one or two. Be perfect on each shot. I said that when you hit them all you don't have to keep score because the best others could do is tie you not beat you and I intended to break them all and as long as I broke them all he'd never beat me. I could beat myself but no one else could. He laughed but did not understand. In the next six shoots I broke 598x600 and he never ended up beating me, others did. He soon lost interest and went on to golf. But it is the same in golf, one shot at a time. Thanks dad, my dad kept score and now I know why so that I would do it his way