doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com RST 16 Gauge Bismuth

Ouch! Much cheaper to use lead and pay the fine.

You know, it'd be smart of the Feds to allow a hunter to buy something like the carbon credits companies do who cannot meet emission standards. So, if I wanted to shoot lead at ducks I could buy lead credits from another hunter who uses bismuth or some other metal or the Feds could just issue me new ones. Makes perfect sense to me.

Why carry a 16ga to shoot 20ga? Kent and Rio loads are much cheaper and hit harder at both ends, hint.

Because many of us like 16 and sometimes have to shoot non-tox

Going back to colonial days, prior to DuPont, of course, (E. I. du Pont to be exact), when powder and ball were scarce and used sparingly.

Perhaps it's time to think about getting one of them new Sweet Sixteens. Folks say 26" barrel version is about 6lb. While that gun is expensive to buy it is steel-shot compatible making it a lot cheaper to shoot in the long run. We do not live in England where magazine capacity is limited to two so we can get few more shots between reloads.

I agree there. How about the newer Turkish doubles, aren't they steel compatible?

Some of us just don't want a shotgun with less tan two barrels, which is our major reason for being on a forum by the name of "Doublegunshop", Period.
Some of us don't even want those two barrels stacked atop one another. Its Windy March, if this is all the input you have why don't you just go Fly a Kite instead of fooling around on a DoubleGun forum.

Miller, you took the words right out of my mouth.

JM, you are always "advising" someone buy some pump or semi auto. Why are you here? If we wanted to discuss those types of guns, we would be elsewhere.

Are they making only special runs of these shells? I notice, "rare and in short supply" on their web-site.

I thought the SecInt just lifted the ban on lead shot?

No, the Sec Int did not, he just stopped an expansion of that ban.

The non toxic rules in existence for waterfowl still stand.

Glad I reload my own Bismuth. For those who do the same it is this time of year which you can get lucky and find a few close out sales on shells or shot. I still watch on eBay for those seven pound bottles of bismuth shot that come up from time to time even though I have enough Bismuth shot on hand to last me for several more seasons.

Me, too. I even scored three bottles of about 6# each (bismuth) on an auction site last year. They were inspection samples, that had been pulled off the line at the old ASARCO plant. Three different shot sizes.

SRH

I'm glad I load my own Bismuth too. A few years ago I'd been noticing Bismuth shells in odd loads (like 3.5 inch 12 ga... not many vintage guns so chambered) sitting forever on a local retailer's shelves. They finally put the shells on sale at 30% off, and I offered to buy all they had for 70% off. They bit, and I've been cutting open shells and salvaging the bismuth for my own handloads ever since. I enjoy handloading, and now have enough Bismuth to last me the next 20 years for about the same cost as today's premium lead loads.

What you have there is 20ga load in 16ga shell. The thing to do is watch when places like Cabela's have Kent Bismuth on sale. I have posted some time ago when I seen it at $13.99 per 10 pack. That is for excellent 1oz load of #5s or 6# at about 1200fps not some "watered down" short cased load at insane price. The $13.99 is very good price when one considers that is what I payed for brown boxed Bismuth when it was sold by I think Winchester. That was nearly 20 years ago.

The Kent Bismuth at Cabela's is a 1300 fps load. Cabela's had it listed at 1200 fps on their web site. I was 5' behind the screens below. They do pattern well, but might be a bit spunky for a vintage gun.

One would have to examine guns on individual basis to determine if this cartridge is suitable for particular piece. What is see is basically cartridge equal to English game loads. Their velocity for cartridges of 65mm to 70mm hovers around 1350fps to 1450fps depending on shot weight. When we takes into consideration that they measure velocity at the muzzle not certain distance from the muzzle I would think velocities are about the same. Does that mean English game cartridges maybe to hot for vintage guns?

I'm confused here, where in this country is upland game being hunted with non toxic shot other than California?

They're a little light on payload for ducks, so are they marketing a very expensive shell for just California and Californians?

I would say Dr. Rev. Drew Hause has put us on notice about dangers of mercury and lead exposure in "leaded bores" topic. I don't know about you, but by mistake I rather swallow few pellets of "Pepto Bismol" instead of couple lead pellets.

May I ask one question , Jagermeister?

When is the last time you shot a bismuth load in a double gun?

SRH

treblig1958 and others, read below


http://www.leadfreehunting.com/state-regulations/

I looked at my records. Used Aguirre & Aranzabal #52274 in 2011.

Jagermeister doesn't even own any double shotguns. He's a tire kicker who drools on the counter at gun stores, and regurgitates what he reads elsewhere.

He can't even keep his damn stories straight about how many guns he actually owns. Go back through his posts just since January of this year to see how many times his stories have changed. Here is where he recently told us that he only has 5 guns:



Now we know from his prior claims, if we can believe them, that he has a short barreled late model 12 gauge Ithaca model 37 pump with 3" chamber and choke tubes. He also has a post '64 Model 70 push feed Winchester in .300 H&H Magnum that was a single shot because it wouldn't feed properly. He claimed to have two semi-auto handguns, and recently took us on this fantasy ride where he claimed he was trying to decide between a Webley and Scott or a Merkel 47E... yet ended up buying some cheap un-named 4 1/2 Lb. alloy barreled 20 gauge pump.

Jagermeister's Gun Buying Fantasy



That makes 5 guns. Then he also claims to rent a cheap Chinese .22LR bolt action rifle. However, he was briefly claiming that he had bought a second short barreled pump shotgun.



Those were his claims, not mine. But since January, he has also made wild claims about purchasing some double with an optical sight, and alluded to buying various 16 gauge ammunition after repeatedly knocking the 16 gauge as a choice for himself and others.

He has been an ardent supporter of anti-2nd Amendment politicians, repeatedly lambasting Donald Trump... until he then claimed to have voted for him. And now he's here in this thread advancing anti-lead ammunition rhetoric.

As more and more people are finally beginning to notice... Jagermeister doesn't even own a F***ing Double! But hey, it's the internet... where you can pretend to be most anything you want until you get all twisted up in your lies and bullshit.

I'm frankly a bit surprised that he hasn't yet claimed to be a close personal friend of John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King.

It's been 6 years since you shot a bismuth shell in a double gun, yet you give more advice about it than any other poster on this thread. Explain, please.

SRH

State Game Production Areas in South Dakota require the use of non-toxic shot for all game birds. This South Dakota requirement has been in effect for many years.

Additionally, land managed by the US Army Corps of Engineers around the Missouri River (near Pierre, SD, for example) also requires non toxic shot for all birds.

There may be other state requirements outside of California.

Hey Treblig1958:

There are lots of places in the U.S. where upland game is being taken with non-toxic shot... for example any place upland bird harvest is being mixed with waterfowl hunting. Many of Montana and the Dakota's best pheasant hunting is found on the edge of wetlands, where ducks are also found so many hunters carry only non-toxic shells and come home with a mixed bag of, for example, mallards and ring-neck pheasants. A massive indian reservation near me where non-tribal members can upland hunt requires non-toxic shot even for hunting solely upland birds. I typically fire 100-150 non-toxic shells a year in vintage doubles at upland birds with good success. GG

WHAT!!!!!

The last time I was in South Dakota (in 2009 near Chamberlain) I guess I broke a bunch of laws then.

I'm sure better men than you or I have already blazed that path!

I guess when I go back I'll only take my non toxic shot. I still have plenty of RST 16 gauge shells.

Thanks for the information GG, you probably kept me out of jail.

You have to really hate ducks to spend this much money to shoot them.

I have to disagree with you guys about 16ga. I love a 16 for upland shooting. I don't think any gun puts a 1 oz load down range better and really like a 1 oz load for birds. But ducks are tough. The 12ga does a lot better job. Wounding an animal so that it dies at a later date is cruel.

Pooch, I agree with you. I love the 16 for general upland hunting, but I grab a 12 when I go duck hunting.

Me, too. The only exception I might would make in favor of a 16 or 20 is the early teal season, in which you can shoot nothing else except maybe a woodie in states where an early woodie season overlaps the teal season in September. I was shooting beside a gentleman, and I mean gentleman in every sense of the word, in a duck blind on Reelfoot Lake last September. We were gunning teal ..... blue wings. He was using a 20 and he did just as good a job, if not better, on them than any man there using a 12. No crippling problems, and the 20 was very quick for those little darting, jiving blues.

SRH

I have used a 16 successfully in the wooded bottoms on wood ducks and teal early in the season. It did handle the quick through the trees shooting nicely with the trimmer gun.

Any game bird or fowl that is small enough that I can eat three of them whole, off the grill, can be taken handily with a sub gauge gun.

I'd better go to work, I'm making myself hungry for some more teal.

SRH

Hey:). That "ignore this user" function really works well. I can just wipe out those that know everything and make sure we all know it.

Teal and wood ducks are a little softer and the teal are fast and quick requiring a lighter quick moving gun. But down here in Texas it's still warm and we have snakes galore in early Teal season so I don't go. Wood duck are just too cute for me to shoot and their mate seems to miss the killed duck so.

It's hard being a real hunter when down inside I'm a wimp.

Wood ducks and teal are such tasty birds that I never pass them by. Both can dip, dive and change directions so fast that they seem to be able to dodge shot at will. And more than one time I have killed the teal behind the one I was shooting at. Humbling they can be but rewarding as well. Where I shoot woo ducks a 16 would be perfect. Longest shot within 20 yards with small windows between trees to make them fast shooting targets.

Teal are fun but they are quick crafty little bastards. I've shot more air then Teal. I feel any Teal I've killed I earned.

Pooch,
Since I shoot lightweight 12's with 1oz. loads for most of my upland hunting, I believe it patterns well also. I've found that stepping down from the traditional shot weight works wonders.
Karl

Jagermeister doesn't even own any double shotguns. He's a tire kicker who drools on the counter at gun stores, and regurgitates what he reads elsewhere.

He can't even keep his damn stories straight about how many guns he actually owns. Go back through his posts just since January of this year to see how many times his stories have changed. Here is where he recently told us that he only has 5 guns:



Now we know from his prior claims, if we can believe them, that he has a short barreled late model 12 gauge Ithaca model 37 pump with 3" chamber and choke tubes. He also has a post '64 Model 70 push feed Winchester in .300 H&H Magnum that was a single shot because it wouldn't feed properly. He claimed to have two semi-auto handguns, and recently took us on this fantasy ride where he claimed he was trying to decide between a Webley and Scott or a Merkel 47E... yet ended up buying some cheap un-named 4 1/2 Lb. alloy barreled 20 gauge pump.

Jagermeister's Gun Buying Fantasy

[quote=Jagermeister][quote=Ted Schefelbein]It will be very nice to carry, and close to impossible to shoot well. It will also kick like a ten gauge.

Good luck. I mean that.



I chose short-barreled 16ga Remington semi-auto with 1/4 choke instead of double I was going to buy. The reason I made that decision is that no person on Lowiecki.pl had anything good to say about the double I was considering buying. There was no point in spending good money on clunker and electro-optical sight for it. I'm always on the lookout for quality double for fair price.

With respect to new Sweet Auto 5 16ga recommendation. I'm not sorry about doing that. It is good handling shotgun that can be used with all types of modern shells of appropriate length. I see no point in buying "weak" 16ga ammo loaded to old vintage 20ga standard and paying big premium for it. I would say if someones 16ga can't handle 1oz at 1300fps they should get another shotgun.

The .300H&H was made ca. 1959. I have replaced old follower with another one for $20 plus shipping the the gun functions fine now. If one does not mind extra weight it's not a bad centerfire rifle to own. If I had to choose again I wold buy old 'Featherweight' in .30-06 or .270 instead.

A lot of guys shoot a 1 oz load with a 12, particularly if they are shooting an old English double. I used 1 oz in a 12 some but not enough to comment on it. If I get into a grove I like I'll stay there so I haven't done a lot of experimentation. I like a lighter gun because I've found that my shooting gets sloppy when I get tired lugging a full size gun all day.

Pooch,
Exactly, being older I find that a 6 1/2 lb, gun suits me better, especially in the uplands. I've fallen in love with my baby framed 28 ga. Merkel and find myself shooting it more and more. I find it amazing what that little 28 ga. can do,but that's another thread entirely...................
Karl