doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com leaded bores

I have a double with very tight bores perfect for card wad loads, through which I've shot many hundreds. Getting the bores thoroughly cleaned of leading, though requires quite a bit of effort. In reality, as long as I use care to wipe out powder residue and keep them lubed, is there any harm in leaving lead in the bores?

Try the stainless steel wool that Frontier sells. It works the best of any of the brushes, mops, and common steel wool that I have tried, fast easy.

bill

Agree with the Frontier pads. I wrap it around a bronze bristle brush and spin it with a electric drill. Performs miracles in a very short time. The Frontier material will not scratch the bore or blue. I don't know what it is made of but it is good.

The biggest concern is that moisture gains a toehold underneath the lead and pitting will occur. That is where most pitting in very old guns came from, IMO.

SRH

Stan,

Do you think rust and pitting could occur in modern barrels that are heavily leaded? I have hunting companions that I doubt have ever cleaned their barrels.

Get the lead out. Stan is right. I thought I had a shiny bore on a superpose only to find that underneath the lead the bore had been attacked and was pitted. I had to have the gun rebored. I had been using a bore brush so I never expected the barrel to be leaded up.

I'm sure lead and graphite have filled imperfections in the bores of used guns I've acquired. Shocking to get it all out finally and see the tool marks, scratches, etc. Of course it's those rough places that catch the stuff to begin with.

As far as residue leading to corrosion, from personal experience nothing matches plastic esp. steel shot wad material. Go an entire season without cleaning with the bores getting wet occasionally, if not chrome it's virtually a guarantee there's rust.

OK!! Lets have the shock horror and gnashing of teeth thing over and done with now!! Lead fowling of barrels and the removal of such. I use the tried and tested no hard work or vigorous barrel scrubbing Victorian gunsmiths method. Put a cork in the barrel breach pour half an egg cup of Mercury yes that is what I said Mercury via the muzzle cover with a polythene bag and seal with the palm of your hand or another cork and swill the said Mercury from end to end a dozen times. Hay presto all the lead fowling will have Magically disappeared with very little effort on your part!!

Most that I am aware of that are made "offshore" America are chrome lined now, Tamid, and immune to such ills, even the cheapest Turkish made guns. Most new shotguns sold anywhere are, probably. Any gun's barrel, rifles included, with chromoly steel, or any other steel that isn't stainless, and are not chrome lined, will lead and rust underneath. Corrosive primers and black powder got blamed for a lot of pits they didn't cause. Most of the worst are from leading, IMO. Every gun owner had the ability to wipe out a bore with a little oil. Not all knew to get the lead out however, or how to go about it.

SRH

Has this question been asked before?

Can we chrome line our old damascus, twist or fluid steel barrels?

I wouldn't even know where to start looking for a 1/2 cup of mercury in Canada.

Messing with mercury and it's associated hazards make the cure sound worse than problem.
Karl

Karl I don't see the panic over heavy Metals so lets get some proportion in this. Mercury it has been used since man found that by heating Cinnabar you could have this wonderful liquid metal Mercury. Even though its toxicity is known vast quantities are still used all over this planet. If you look in to the known toxic effects on people you have to be exposed to Mercury vapours for years and years not just a couple of minutes. I do believe that the Mercury amalgam fillings in my teeth have been giving off Mercury vapours since they where fitted and they are classed as low risk. I could go on further but it is like the attitude to lead oh!the panic when the press get hold of things they have a tendency to blow things out of all proportion.
In the photograph is a Matthaeus Hipp Electric clock invented 1838 and if you look closely the pendulum it contains sixteen pounds of the Devil Mercury next to it is a Fortin Barometer with another five pound of the stuff. Now these two devices have been hanging on my house wall for some fifty five years now. So what I am saying is don't believe all the publicity people still drink Alcohol and smoke Tobacco and more people shuffle of their mortal coils from the after effects of these two, than people suffering from the effects of mercury poisoning. And of course I am looking forward to my seventy first birthday so Mercury has not got me as a victim yet!!!!

Damascus,
I'm turning 70 this weekend and when I was young worked in a testing lab that used mercury to seal it's air flow chambers, so apparently there is no harm done. I agree that many things are blown out of proportion. I also enjoy pipe smoking occationally in spite of all the warnings. Those are beautiful instruments you have there!
Karl

The gentlemen are correct about using mercury, but that isn't the problem. The problem is the stuff just can't hardly be procured any more. The governments have slapped such restrictions on it that it's pretty much unobtainable by ordinary civilians.

Is there a reference describing the technique ?

Liquid mercury is easily obtainable for me

Yes there is a printed reference to using the Mercury method of gun barrel Lead removal. It is in the "Shooters Handbook" by Richard Arnold published by Nicholas Kaye Ltd. London. Though now out of print, like a lot of interesting books on guns and shooting. Process is described on page 21 section three. It is a pity you folks reside on the other side of the pond I do have a spare pound or two of Mercury. Purchasing it here is a little restricted but not impossible to purchase, it sometimes appears on e-bay for sale though often collection only.

I have several pounds of mercury that I bought from a very old dentist. He use to mix his own amalgam fillings in a machine that held the silver metal fillings in one chamber and mercury in the other. They would drop into a mixing chamber and shaken to mix. You could adjust the ratio to extend working time or make the fillings stronger or expand slightly to seal the cavity well in undercuts. I think I paid a buck or two for what I have. Haven't thrown it away because.... well it is mercury and not something to be disposed of improperly. Might be interesting to use it to get the lead out.

Well Gladys Kravitz, you could possibly check the same source where you came up with this double shotgun wisdom in answer to the question, "What is the Best gun made in America before 1900?"

Your answer, which demonstrated the your comprehension, intelligence, and vast double gun knowledge... required of a self appointed thread moderator such as yourself, was this:



Sounds like you've had plenty of exposure to mercury already.

Liquid mercury is easily obtainable for me [/quote]

"What is the Best gun made in Anerica before 1900?"[/b]

[quote=old colonel]

Easy question. Answer Remington 1894. The best shotguns with American name engraved on them at that time were Birmingham-made Winchester hammer guns. Those were the best two barrel shotguns Winchester ever sold.

I should mention that one of the best bird guns made here was the legendary 7lb 12ga Remington 11-96. It came with lightened steel receiver, Light Contour barrel with RemChokes. It was gun of the year at the time it was put together, rightfully so. Very advanced design. You load magazine tube pull the slide and after trigger is pulled the system self-loads cartridges utilizing metering gas system ie. very, very advanced design. The big upside is it hits like a twelve and recoils like a 20.

Oops, I meant one pulls the bolt back and presses square button at rear of shell lifter which drives the bolt forward into the firing position. After the trigger is pulled off safe the gun functions in self-loading mode until magazine is empty. Truly wonderful experience.

Chrome bores are delightful when it comes to cleaning. That being said, assuming you're using plastic wads, your problem might well be one of plastic buildup rather than lead. Not sure what problems go along with that. But regular cleaning solves it.

Plastic build up can really fool you. The bore will look great while underneath the plastic is corrosion. I have found it particularly so when I started reloading. I have started using one of those bore cleaning fluids and not just depending on good old Hoppe's and a wire brush.

You guys are scaring me. I'm going to start checking my guns a little better. Do you think moisture is actually getting under the lead or plastic ? I would think the pitting was already there, then covered up by the plastic and lead.

Erethism or Mad Hatter's Disease is quite real
http://www.medicinenet.com/mercury_poisoning/article.htm

As adults we can chose the risks we take. Not so unborn babies and children, and a responsible father or grandfather would be VERY careful to avoid in utero or childhood exposure to mercury, and lead.

Well Derw I have taken the trouble to read the Mad Hatter's article and the first thing that struck me was it was written by a basic researcher that went into a Library and took out the books on Mercury. The reason I say this is because there was nothing in the article that has not been known about for near on a hundred years. The most remarkable part of the article was the Mercury in fish part this is just old news dressed up to look new. In fact it was an incident some time past that happened in Japan caused by a battery manufacturing plant discharging its waste in costal waters. My opinion of this article is news media hype!
But I will give you food for thought, if you take your self in to a large Art Gallery that has a lot of old master oil paintings hanging on the walls, the lead and mercury vapours from the pigments in the paint is on the high side. Now that is news but the reason they don't make a big thing about it is MOMEY! MONEY! MONEY! and invested interest in the billions of Pounds and Dollars for paintings. And a Final thought the artist Michelangelo had green teeth from the pigments he used in fact lead poisoning, there was also thoughts along the line that Mercury in the pigments had affected his brain in later life.
And my final thoughts are why do we still use the dirty Diesel Engine that pumps out unseen Particulates all the time in to the air, it is killing millions of people and the unborn annually. Could it be something to do with vested interest and MONEY!
This puts the problems with Mercury very much in perspective doesn't it?

Not really, if the exposure occurs to my unborn child, child or grandchild.

More reading about Minamata disease from The Register
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/07/14/the_odd_body_minimata_disaster/
Take a look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihFkyPv1jtU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSKdkssJ6I0

Have we learned anything?
An entire generation is growing up in China exposed to industrial chemicals (esp. lead) and will pay a terrible cost.
Gold miners in Brazil are using mercury to process the gold, and dumping the stuff in the Amazon.
Yes, it is all about money, and greed.

As I said Drew old news made to look new. If you have family living in japan that is unfortunate, though I thought you lived on the other side of the world. We could go on and talk about Union Carbide and Bhopal but to me that is on the other side of the world to me, and I don't have any family there. As I said all media hype! I don't need any further education on heavy metals at one time earned a living in that dangerous world of producing storing and shipping them.
You seem to have ignored the diesel engine! And where you not surprised that I did know about the Japan incident. you did not put that forward until I told you.
Drew leave me in peace and I will leave you in piece, pissing up the wall contests I grew out of well before I got married.

I had/have no interest in making this personal, and apologize if my outrage appears selective. Let me repeat: Adults may feel free to do whatever they wish regarding exposure to mercury.

I remember vividly when this image was published in Life magazine June 2, 1972. I decided then that there was a legitimate role for government in restraining evil; by the time the consequences made it to Tort or the Criminal Justice system it was far too late for the victims
https://iconicphotos.org/2009/05/06/tomoko-uemura-in-her-bath/



I've also professionally seen the neuro-cognitive and behavioural consequences of chronic lead exposure in inner-city children.

Just trying to protect the kids Damascus, down the block or the other side of the world, and foolish enough to think possibly I can make some tiny difference, somewhere. And that's not just an empty hope. Personally treating these kid's intestinal parasites, and giving them multivitamins and food might do just that. No, they are mine either, but I believe we have the same Father

Here's a neat list from our own Food and Drug Administration of Drug and Biologic products which contain the dreaded element mercury to this very day:

https://www.fda.gov/regulatoryinformatio...a/ucm100218.htm

The mercury containing chemical Thimerosal is a preservative frequently used in vaccines, and is even used in those vaccines routinely given to infants and children, such as DPT vaccine. Of course, dental amalgam containing mercury is still in widespread use simply because it lasts longer and performs better than the non-mercury alternatives. I'd imagine that most of us were routinely painted with Mercurochrome or Merthiolate by our Mom's when we cut ourselves or skinned our knees.

About 50% of the world's exposure to mercury contamination is from natural sources such as emissions from volcanic activity.

That said, I would do everything I could to reduce or eliminate exposure to mercury by myself or my kids. Although I can get mercuric chloride, I won't be mixing up any of Angier's recipes that utilize it because there are safer alternatives. Mercury is seriously bad stuff, but the risks from the limited exposure found in most modern cultures appear to be somewhat exaggerated. Excessive regulation of heavy metals here isn't doing much, if anything, to prevent Brazilians from dumping them into the Amazon, or Chinese from exporting consumer goods painted or tainted with them. Damascus obviously understands the risks, and knows how to minimize and control them. Certain others here probably shouldn't be permitted to use scissors or pencils without adult supervision.

Now, perhaps... a word or two from an anti-2nd Amendment guy with a giant carbon footprint, who helps feed a multi-megawatt biomass burning power plant at a pulp mill in Canada...

I remember friends across the seas and on other continents who came to assist when Britain was taking a fierce lead pasting from the Luftwaffe, and 20,000 dear Londoners being killed by the smog a few years later brought the community together against pollution to make the city a gleaming landscape, salmon entering the Thames as far as Richmond. No man is an island . . .

London sure has changed from the first time I saw it in the early 70s to the last time I saw it in the mid 90s

Years ago when I was teaching at Butler University we had some HgCl2 tablets in storage; they were in the shape of coffins.

Drew -- I think the photo you posted was in a story about Cadmium poisoning not lead. Nevertheless soluble lead is clearly a toxin.

jlb

jib (Jerry?): The Chisso Minamata factory first started acetaldehyde production in 1932. The chemical reaction used to produce the acetaldehyde used mercury sulfate as a catalyst. Starting August 1951, the co-catalyst was changed from manganese dioxide to ferric sulfide. A side reaction of this catalytic cycle led to the production of methylmercury, which was released into Minamata Bay until 1968.
The company's own tests showed that its wastewater contained lead, mercury, manganese, arsenic, thallium, copper, and selenium (no mention of cadmium).
BTW: Chisso installed a Cyclator purification system in 1959 with full knowledge that it was ineffective in removing organic mercury, then later hired Yakuza to beat up the locals when they started protesting.

As we know, the last LEAD smelter in the U.S. was shut down in Dec. 2013, as were lead recycling facilities
https://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/s...ry-lead-smelter
Old U.S. lead batteries are now recycled in the ecological paradise to our south, Mexico, and Brazil.
http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/lead-battery-recycling-has-moved-to-mexico/
And once again the kids pay the price for the greed
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/09/science/earth/recycled-battery-lead-puts-mexicans-in-danger.html

2016 report on informal (as in unregulated ie. we bribed the inspector) lead acid battery recycling
https://www.slideshare.net/e4sv/edinburgh-may16-citrecycle-informal-lead-acid-battery-recycling
Mexico 50% of children suffer from lead poisoning. Brazil 16.5% of children suffer from lead poisoning. Chronic lead poisoning has been declared a national public health emergency in China. 25% of the Indian population tested positive for lead poisoning.

Too depressed to go on, but at least were back on topic Guess I'll go eat a Lithium battery

Actually, Johnson Controls just opened it's Florence, S.C. lead smelting facility in Sept. of 2012

http://www.recyclingtoday.com/article/lead-smelter-johnson-controls/

This new state of the art facility smelts over 130,000 metric tons of spent lead batteries per year. Lead acid batteries are America's most recycled product, with over 99% of lead batteries used in the U.S. being reused and recycled. There are quite a few other lead smelting and recycling operations in the U.S., where laws governing pollution are much more strict than either Mexico or Canada. The vast majority of lead for the lead shot and lead bullets we use comes from U.S. lead recycling facilities. However, as a result of strict controls here, and as a result of insane trade deals like NAFTA, a lot of former U.S. smelting and recycling has moved to Canada and Mexico. One out of five scrap car batteries now finds it's way to Mexico, but the vast majority are still recycled right here. A loss of control of the southern border has also been responsible for increased transport of scrap lead going to Mexico where Drug Lords operate dirty, polluting facilities as a means to launder drug money. Liberals who may feel good about driving away lead smelting facilities here are mostly blissfully unaware that their actions have sickened many more children and adults than they have helped. Bunch of racists and misogynists if you ask me.

Obviously, responsible lead recycling involves much more than simply saying lead is bad, and as a result, tightening regulations here, thus driving the trade where regulation is lax. But all of this nasty lead pollution in Mexico should also make California shooters wonder just how it can be possible that the California Condor is being reintroduced in Mexico.

https://www.fws.gov/news/blog/index.cfm/...pread-to-Mexico

Thank you Keith. I did not know about the Johnson Controls facility. It should also be noted than Doe Run, even after closure of the "from the mine" smelter continued to operate a recycling facility
http://www.doerun.com/what-we-do/metal-production

I had also forgotten (uh...slipped my lead contaminated mind ) of the possible association with ALS, which I'm embarrassed to say is old news
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16909025
http://kbia.org/post/end-lead-laced-era-polluting-smelter-close-after-120-years#stream/0

Drew and others -- sorry about my dated memory. The Japanese tragedy I was thinking of was itai-itai (it hurts-- it hurts) disease resulting from cadmium poisoning in the drinking water from the Jinzugawa River basin. I do still have the memory of the photo you showed being used in a story that must have included a section on cadmium.

jlb

Mercury can get you other ways too!

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.pyrotechnics/2005-12/msg00095.html

The Rise and Progress of the British Explosives Industry
Published under the auspices of the VIIth International Congress of Applied Chemistry, 1909
Eley Brothers, London

By 1828 the demand for these accessories gave promise of opening an almost unlimited field for inventive ingenuity. William Eley, the founder of the present firm was early attracted to this interesting branch, and literally devoted his life and fortune to mechanical inventions. To him is attributed the once-famous wire cartridge, which by delaying the dispersion of the pellets, effected the same purpose in the guns of the period as in now produced by choke-boring.
At the age of forty-seven he fell victim to a disastrous explosion of fulminate of mercury which simultaneously destroyed him, his laboratory, and its contents.

And to make amends for wandering OT

Before



Same section after scrubbing with a piece of Big 45 Frontier Metal Cleaner on the end of a cleaning rod chucked into a cordless drill, then soaked with KleenBore Formula 3 Gun Conditioner. BTW: the wrinkles are elastic deformation as the steel stretched prior to the blow out.

Actually, Doe Run Lead Co. operates several lead mining, smelting, recycling, and processing facilities in the U.S., as do numerous other companies. One Doe Run facility is the main supplier of lead for Sierra Bullets. It is indeed unfortunate that old lead smelting plant referenced in one of the links provided was not up to date in their safety standards. I suppose the same could be said of a lot of industrial plants in a lot of different industries ranging from chemicals, to steel, to uranium and plutonium production, and nuclear power generation.

But I do encourage everyone who is concerned about efforts to ban lead ammunition to read those links Drew provided. They provide wonderful insight and evidence of what a couple of us were attempting to get through Larry Brown's thick skull last year when he was blaming deer hunter's bullet fragments for lead poisoning in eagles. The link above has a map showing a map of an area a mile in diameter around that old plant that was blanketed in dust containing 30% lead. Certainly there had to be lesser concentrations ranging miles away. I seriously doubt if all the deer hunting ever done in this country since the Europeans settled it could leave so much lead, in such a high concentration, over such a large area.

Consider also that lead dust is many times more bio-available than expended bullets, shot, or fragments. That means it is much more readily absorbed into tissues and cells where it causes symptoms of toxicity and poisoning. Consider also that this one out-dated facility is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to industrial and commercial sources of lead that dwarf anything ever deposited by shooters and hunters. There were millions of tons of lead used in paints, gasoline, chemicals, pesticides. These sources of lead contamination, on a molecular or atomic scale, are also many times more bio-available than expended shot or bullet fragments. They are more easily inhaled, absorbed, or ingested. And don't forget that volcanic activity has blasted millions of cubic yards of vaporized and super-heated elements into the atmosphere over millions of years, including lead, mercury, cadmium, etc.

Don't ever make the mistake of allowing anti-gunners and anti-hunters to use the red herring of contamination caused by your ammunition in their under-handed efforts to eliminate guns and hunting. If they ever succeed, we won't have to worry about pitted barrels anymore.