doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Receiver Case Coloring Methodologies

over the years, have observed results of different methods of receiver case coloring:

-flame broiling, aka torch method
-roasting, aka high heat bone charcoal method
-slow cooking, aka low heat chemical method

what have been your observations?

Come on, Ed. Not again.

back: is it snowin where you are?

Yup

not yet here in southern va...but, am in cabin fever mode...

Ah, here comes more trolling from anti-gun Ed, the anti-2nd Amendment gun dealer.





Don't worry Ed, our new self-appointed thread moderator, Gladys Kravitz, a.k.a. old colonel, should be along shortly with his thread diversions to permit you to Troll freely.

keet who?

And yet another anti-gun post from none other than Ed Good:



Ed Good still has not accepted the Heller and McDonald Supreme Court decisions that say the 2nd Amendment has precedence over the 10th. Thanks for showing us where you stand on gun rights Ed.

'Splain to me once again how holding an acetylene torch flame to spots on a doublegun action case hardens it. It horribly colors it, but you now claim it case-hardens it?

SRH

keet yo tail in line.

I think that Russian rap has gone to craigd 's head.


_______________________
Oh, piss off, I fookin' hate golf!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkq9qjzB9UQ&feature=share

Well, as you already know, what is happening there is a tempering.
Those colours are the varying hardness as the hardness is drawn out of the steel.

Hardness colours are over rated anyhow, IMHO.
I have a NEF 410 that is like a Christmas tree bauble.
Garish as a rat with a gold tooth.
O.M

As I noted Ed has edited his post I assume he started it as Case Hardening, when I looked at it, it said Case Coloring. As stated the use of an acetylene torch to produce colors does not harden, but "Destroys" existing colors.
To date I have never had a frame re-hardened. The only ones I have ever re-colored were a few "Cheapies" on which I used Oxpho blue dapped & streaked on at a temp of about 200�F which does not affect original treatment. First attempt at this was on a Stavens 94 single barrel & it looked about as well as an original which would have been cyanide hardened.

He did, of course, change it. I would not have replied as I did had he not originally said case hardening.

It's pretty obvious he is just vainly trying to save face, which is an exercise in futility as it is much too late, IMO, by changing his post and not replying to me. I guess it's hard to convince the world that water ain't wet.

SRH

stan who?

about cyanide recoloring? how would one classify that?

slow cook, basted with poison sauce?

Actually, this topic is fairly interesting. I'm speaking of superficially recoloring for purely aesthetic purposes. I'll differentiate this from high temp torch processes that alter the temper of the steel. These low temp processes may be suitable for lower value guns, those which the expense of true case coloring would clearly be uneconomical. My collection of old gunsmithing books are full of these processes, and some firms are offering such things as Tea Staining as a way to provide at least some degree of coloring on guns. There is also another company offering a "Patina" series of products for superficial recoloring.

https://steelfxpatinas.com/shop/steel-patinas/gel-patinas/color-case-hardening-patina-kit/#reviews

For guns of relativly low value and/or collectability, and as long as the color recreation is fairly accurate, these processes provide a reasonable option. Of course, "full disclosure" is essential when selling the gun.

So, in order to advance the thread, anyone know anymore low temp recoloring processes besides Osphoblue and a heat gun?

Regards
Ken

Ed,
My observations are that..
you like to stir the shit pot
you like to ruin a few nice Guns.
you are a few pence short of the full shilling.
you are a pure jerk
That I should not disable the ignore button once engaged
franc

frank who?

The topic when brought up by Ed is with little to no merit and is designed to troll for negative remarks. Some from those who hid under the cyber bridge.

Though I would not put it in the same way as Franc, I do agree that torching is just wrong and espousing it as having merit is malevolent.

Case color is aesthetic and a by product of case hardening, but what matters is it is also functionally important in that when done correctly it hardens parts of the gun and ensures proper wear and structural integrity. Methods such as Ed's torch approach is destructive, deforming, and done though ignorance.

An argument can be made torching is no different than used car salesmen gimmicks to hide defects, but I see it as both vandalism and fraud.

Doing so without revealing the methods used and down pricing accordingly to wall hanger should be punished as fraud and could be prosecuted as knowingly committing a crime for the fraud and creating defective products.

Ken61 I do not know if the product you linked to has the same negative structural impacts that torching does, but given the general lack of full disclosure and potential ignorance by future sellers, I can't say I think it good choice

Ed you are just stirring the pot on this one and are getting what you have sown

Michael Dittamo
Topeka, KS

I've wondered for a while if there are decent applied patina options. In my case, I have a rifle that some genius started to remove the finish from the receiver. It functions extremely smooth, and parts would be like hens teeth, so I'd rather it not have to be refit or otherwise messed with.

ole col, just a reminder to you and utters...contrary to popular mythology, i do no gun work of any kind, including receiver case coloring via any method, including flame broiling...i am but an observer of what passes before my eyes and thru my hands...in fact, over the years, i have come to the conclusion that receiver coloring is counter productive to classic gun preservation and involves too many risks to justify the expense...

craig: as to your rifle receiver, how about some type of rust bluing? a case colored rifle receiver sounds inappropriate?

That's udderly ridiculous. Just kidding ed, it's an old American single shot that were known to originally be case colored.

like maybe a stevens?

Just for the record....The steel X patinas can look very nice. It is an alternate "finish" to a gun that has lost it's coloring.... obviously not something for a collector value gun, but as an alternate to bluing just leaving blank
Jerry

Thanks Jerry, ed, I'll leave your 'favorite' out of it for now.

I'm kind of wondering if I can use and admire something without looking at the sides of the receiver being in the white. All else looks appropriate for its age. Maybe, there's a very reversible tide over till someone else gets to decide when I'm long gone. I'm not thinking to buy any particular product, only that there may be options available with a little different intention than perking up a bargain truck gun.

The cold blue @ 200� F I mentioned was taken from an Ithaca Service Manual.
They recommended it for restoring the finish on the frames of the Perazzi's they were then importing when color was worn off. These were made of an alloy steel unsuited for case hardening & was apparently similar to the Factory finish.
These were not exactly what one might call a "Cheap Truck Gun". To add some yellows they mentioned another chemical which could be used in conjunction with the cold blue. I don't recall the name off hand, would have to look it up. I tried some but personally I liked just the blue better. Ithaca recommended Numrich 44-40 cold blue. I tried both it & Oxpho & could tell no difference in the final results.

You are correct that I judge your torching by reputation. I have not the energy or concern to go back and research all the threads to prove it. I remain comfortable anyhow, on this one anyway.

As for stirring the pot by asking a question on this subject, I doubt anyone other than you would argue.

I hope you are now sincere in opposing torching and will correctly identify any gun you sell that has been torched as such.

PS all of us make errors at times in our posts from time to time. Deliberate Lil Abner stylizations are just plain irritating. Then again that may be why you do it?

I think you can admire in the white, if I can, craig. During restoration of a mint Sterlingworth found for me by John Mann---"a standard by others to be judged by"--- one of the continent's best 'smiths advised against receiver case colouring because of the risk of warping.

If the correct quench process is used and braced correctly ,they will not warp !!!!!!!!!!!!

ole col, et al... flame broiled, roasted or slow cooked, how does one tell the difference?

Search the BBS for MANY examples. You will find them. And you will be more than familiar with them. No need to rehash this garbage again.

Lets all just let this thread die already.

Having worked in machine shops for over 35 years & seeing many many parts go from heat treat ovens, vats etc & into quench tanks, by certified & qualified heat treaters I find this statement to be an absolute Absurdity.
It is an absolute impossibility to say that a part raised to its critical temperature & then give a sudden quench that it "WILL NOT WARP".
"IF" it is not raised to that critical temp & given that sudden quench then it will not come out hard but will rather be essentially annealed.

Thanks, Ken. All I know about gunsmithing is what I read here and of the work and words of gunsmiths to whom I send my guns. Dr. Gaddy's letter qualifies warping to my satisfaction. He says of the correct process: "virtually no warpage will take place" and a couple sentences later refers to "Many British craftsmen follow a similar schedule . ." British craftsman and now Canadian Nick Makinson brought my mint SW back to perfection from six months submerged in salt water. He reminded me of the risk of warping, and I decided not to take it. No regrets.

sounds like flame broiling and roasting of shotgun receivers are case coloring methodologies to be avoided due to high probability of receiver damage...

so what about slow cooking with various sauces? does anyone have other methodologies to share here?

mr piper how many first hand examples of case coloring/hardening if firearm receivers have you examined?i am curious of the percentage of hard fitting required and the amount of bracing while hardening thanks. MC

MC;
I have not witnessed any color case hardening of fireframes frames. My experience with both heat treating & case hardening has been in the machinist trade with non firearms related parts. While I was a machinist & not a metallurgist I do know enough about the process to know that to make a flat out statement that a piece of steel which has been heated to its critical temperature & then given a sudden quench "Will Not Warp:" is basically absurd. Take it for whatever its worth to you, it didn't cost anything.
Warping can occur in any form of heat treating. With case hardening as the hard part is only on the surface with a soft core beneath they can be Bent back into shape. Of course proper procedure, including blocking, can minimize warpage but is no absolute guarantee against it occurring.
Personally when I have a good fitting, smoothly working gun I am not willing to chance any problems just for the sake of color, I still have the hard case, it is not lost with the colors. There is even a remote possibility the frame could "Crack" in the quench. To me it is just not worth the chance.

2 piper,i understand,were there any precautions taken to keep the machine parts from warping ? and i agree on the coloring just for the sake of color,but the gun was made and hardened and functioned for 100 years,if you restore a gun re,engrave coloring goes with that.mc

so, can we all agree that recoloring a shotgun receiver for just the cosmetic affect of new colors is a practice to be avoided?

No, we cannot all agree to your proposition.

While cosmetics is important to many, it is not the only reason.

I think we could agree torching is a no go.

Further I think most could agree redoing case color should be done properly and in keeping with what the gun should have originally been done with.

Ed, our self appointed Thread Moderator Gladys Kravitz, I mean old colonel, has spoken once again. Now just shut up, or suffer the consequences.

You just don't seem to understand who makes the rules of selective civility around here, do you?

And remember, the following rules of gentlemanly posting conduct do not apply to Gladys... only those who have attracted his selective wrath and disapproval.

For all of your ridiculous statement, laughably silly.

Bless you

PS You could stay on topic and answer Ed's proposition

Not so quick ed, you brought up three or four techniques earlier that folks use all the time. If it weren't for the cholesterol, I'd add deep frying to the list.

deep frying could be included under slow cook, but with oil instead of sauce...

curiously, wonder what color one could achieve with: used motor oil at 400 degrees f for say two hours...

With, or without, acetylene, Mr. Torch?

SRH

All the best colors are usually in protected areas. Pull the dip stick on your scooter and check out all the neat colors that form in there. Hope it doesn't look like it got torched in there.

you guys are no fun...well, following dudley's suggestion, guess its time to let this thread die...