doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Weight of my N.I. D.?

My interest in the subject of shotgun balance, etc, is purely for enjoyment and I appreciate the knowledge offered and the interaction.

Very Well Spoken Rocketman, & there are plenty of us on board who appreciate it, Keep Up the good work.

The clay targets places are full of fella's that tell u every thing there is to know what makes for good gun, but same fella's can't seem to apply theory themselves and often are in lower class ranks and if asked will tell u they shoot just for fun.

What's your beef Old Joe?
D.Amos quantified measurements in a fashion never before seen, that apply universally to double guns.
You can compare any selection of shotguns using his measurements, and then immediately feel right in your hands what is different about them.

And he's gracious about it.

Some readers are able to shoot a wide variety of shotguns well, and some cannot. Some readers can implement theory into their lives, and some cannot or don't want to.
Some, with a little understanding, can see that a high MOI shotgun (or low) won't work for how they shoot.

None of this novel approach to measuring shotgun dynamics requires that D.Amos even own a shotgun, let alone shoot one.


Which makes the model even more valuable as well as elegant.

Oh, 'bout as well throw a little gas on the fire.

Ithaca NID BLE #455782 grade 3, 12 gauge, 28" bbls, 15 1/4" LOP

Normal config: weight = 7# 6 oz, balance = 5", unmounted swing effort = 1.88, mounted swing effort = 8.38, compactness = 10.89


With hand guard of 2 1/4 oz: wt = 7# 8 oz, bal = 5 1/8", unmounted = 1.89, mounted = 8.60, compactness = 10.83

With Bugden weighted hand guard 8 oz: wt = 7# 14 oz, bal = 5 1/2, unmounted = 2.02, mounted = 9.30, compactness = 10.94

LOP following 15 7/8":

Galco slip-on butt pad = 4 3/4 oz: wt = 7# 10 oz, bal = 4 1/4", unmounted = 2.08, mounted = 8.75, compactness = 11.24

With hand guard = 2 1/4 oz & butt pad = 4 3/4 oz: wt = 7# 13 oz, bal = 4 3/8", unmounted = 2.09, mounted = 8.99, compactness = 11.16

With hand guard = 8 oz & butt pad = 4 3/4 oz: wt = 8# 2 oz, bal = 5", unmounted = 2.17, mounted = 9.81, compactness = 10.89

Shows how handling varies with common slip-on accessories.

Normal "change awareness" is 4 oz weight, 1/4" balance, 0.2 unmounted swing effort, and 0.4 mounted swing effort. Compactness can be calculated, but is not felt or measured.

Questions.

DDA

Wait Don, I poured the first healthy cupful on the pitiful blaze you started.

So, anyway, I've been told on an occasion or two, that I can take theory, and make it's practice useful to people. In fact, people on occasion pay me for it.

So, it's been no small revelation for me, when I started fiddling with old shotguns, to find out reading in a magazine, that there was a reproducible set of reasons I could shoot some shotguns pretty well, and others, well, not so much.
Did anyone hear me? Reproducible results. Again, Reproducible results.

I remember seeing some kind of gadget, sorta looked like an old record player, with a plumb bob, and a c-clamp attached, on a picnic table. That was the introduction of Don's gadget to the modern shotgunning world.

When I read that article, my hamster's wheels started turning.

I knew that I missed many birds consistently in certain circumstances with certain guns.

As is my nature, I wanted to know "Why?"

It turns out, that as Don's database grew, and I had a chance to sample shotguns with certain handling dynamics, I could easily find shotguns I shot better. Who'da thunk it? I could cut the crap, and focus on either buying guns ready to shoot, or, I could explore shooting in different styles, to improve my performance with what was in my hands.

The answer for me, is that shotguns with certain handling dynamics allow me to shoot pretty darn good, and those that are a great distance away from my "central tendency", I will struggle with. I guarantee that there are presentations that expose this fundamental weakness for every gunner with a central tendency.

It's all in the numbers.

And that's all Don has ever said.

So, to get away from numbers,
Picture this.
(I shot today, and it's all on my mind at the moment)

I took two shotguns to the club today.
A Remington 1894, and an Ithaca Flues Duck gun.
Same cartridges for each. Shot two rounds of clays.
With the Remington, and it's lithe, 30" barrels, I blew past several shallow angle quartering away presentations, because my normal swing through style over accelerated the dynamic Remington. My spotter said I shot 3' ahead into the snow a couple of times at 30 yards.

Then, on some curving incomers, my spotter said my gun stopped right when I shot.
So, there you can see a gun fast to start, and alas, fast to stop.

Now, you guessed it, the Ithaca was just the opposite. Heavy to start, steady on it's path, and hard to stop.

If you look at my scorecard, you'd see the difference in the gun dynamics spelled out in X's and O's.

The same guy, on the same course, a couple hrs apart.

Who cannot like the predictive nature of Don's measurement?

I know what's in store for me when I grab certain guns from the rack. And I thank Don's efforts for that.

Thanks a whole lot for the kind words, CZ. It has been, is and will remain my intent to give shooters a tool that will beat the aimless wondering from gun to gun. Handling numbers are to gun dynamics as stock dimensions are to physical fit.

DDA

My Field Grade NID weighs 11 pounds, 14 ounces, but, then, it has sling swivels.

8-Bore;
At 11lb 14oz is it safe to assume this Field Grade NID is a 3�" 10ga?

This has become a very enlightening, or at least thought provoking, thread.

My two NID guns weight as follows:
NID, #4519xx, 12ga., 30", F/F , 7lbs 6.6oz.
NID, #4448xx, 12ga., 30", F/M , 7lbs 11.6oz.

Just for comparison, here are weights of earlier models:
Flues, #1752xx, 12ga., 30", F/M, 7lb 8.0oz
Flues, #2914xx, 16ga., 28", F/Cyl, 6lb 11.4oz

Minier, #1483xx, 12ga., 30", F/F, 8lb 0.8oz
Minier, #1459xx, 16ga., 26", F/M, 6lb 9.4oz

Lewis, #745xx, 12ga., 30", F/F, 8lb 1.6oz
Lewis, #1208xx, 16ga., 26", F/M, 6lb 9.0oz

Crass, #379xx, 12ga., 30", F/M, 7lb 9.6oz

The mention of the Flues models being lighter than the NID doesn't show up in these numbers but across the board in production they certainly could have. When discussing the 20ga models, the Flues was much lighter whether a duck or quail configuration.

Getting back to the discussion of balance and handling:

Rocketman,
I understand your numbers relative to carrying and mounting the gun, but once the gun mounts the shoulder the points of reference shift from the forward and rear hand to the forward hand, the shoulder, and to some perspective also the off shoulder. At this time all the numbers change. Handling/swing is changed drastically whether the gun is being held to the shooting shoulder with more effort from the leading or aft hand. Also the difficulty of the swing, and keeping line of sight, increases as the barrels approach 90 degrees to the shoulders. I understand the need to keep the center weight of the load between our two feet but, Do you have any numbers to put this into perspective? A generalization of applied physics to what is going on?

Interesting indeed,

John