doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler

Not sure how long the agreement went, but guns from countries with internationally recognized proof house do not need to undergo re-proof when sold in country that has their own proof house. For example if you find old German shotgun completed in Germany between the wars it will have just Thuringen proof and "not English made" or "not English make" but no Birmingham or London proof, yes? In addition to that guns that are brought in for reason other than commercial sales to the public do not need to go to commercial proof house. Example of those would be West German police guns like the PSP. Modern example would be Soviet Makarov that ended up in West Germany or post unification Germany. Those sold to the public will carry commercial German proof marks those used outside of that purpose will not.

9x17=9mm Browning=9mm Kurtz=9mm Corto=.380ACP (and probably a few other names.)
9mm Parabellum=9x19=9mm Luger
9x18 Makarov is a totally different bullet diameter (~.363" vs. ~.356" for the first two)

Oh yes, the 7.65 is a .32ACP

>>>what do you mean 'gun is a fake?<<<
This guns are often seen at auctions and collector pages online.
This gun as shown in the thread has a lot of marks whitch don't have any correlation.
1.On the bascule are shown ACIER FIN, that means stainless steel, not true,
2.Medaille d'or =gold medal, but from where?
e.g. Medaille D'Or Paris will be right.
3. 1/39 is a proof date used in Germany, never in France, France was occupied in June 1940, St. Etienne belongs to the "Zone Libre", not occupied, therefore fake.
4. The sign LW5 and the eagle with swastika belongs to the German airforce.
5. When a gun was proofed in a foreign proof house like St. Etienne it don't need German proof marks.
etc., etc.
THIS GUN IS A COMPLETE FAKE!

A couple years ago the local-to-me Cabelas had a French 12 ga double go through the used gun rack, bearing similar German and French proofs but neither the alleged Himmler signature, the LW eagle, nor the award language. It was a nice gun overall and in nice shape. The German proofs were the Suhl proofhouse (like this gun's) and also dated 741. Additionally, it had a few "SuS" monograms stamped into the buttstock and, IIRC, the watertable or the flats.

I had two suppositions about that gun at that time. My one supposition was that the Germans had looted a number of French doubles and, prior to turning them loose into commerce in Germany, had them run through Sauer's hands and the Suhl proofhouse just to be sure. These guns are light to begin with. Their barrels tend to be lightly struck to pull that off, so belt-and-suspenders Germans would want their own proofs to make them more salable. An alternate supposition at that time was it was a "double GI bringback" - first brought back to Germany by a German soldier, then reproofed in Suhl for some bureaucratic reason now lost to time, then back to the USA in some troop's duffel.

In either case, that was a nice gun in good shape and a good match to my French 16, but Cabelas wanted $750 for it and I thought that a good $250-300 too high, especially since it too had 65mm chambers. So I passed and someone else got it.

Seeing this gun tells me I should favor the first of my suppositions - that the Germans looted a bunch of guns and shipped them home to supply their home market, done in an organized manner. The 741 proof date (on both this one and the one I saw) tells me they went through in a bunch. I would be willing to bet that the records of the Suhl proofhouse, if they still exist for that time, would reveal something along those lines.

I disagree a bit with the translation - Scharfschuetze is not necessarily "sniper". It can also mean simply "best shot" or in this context "high overall shooter". In the case of this gun, it's a nice, though generic, double which quite easily could have been given as a prize to the best shooter in some competition or other. The Luftwaffe eagle and swastika on the one hand and Himmler's alleged signature on the other seem a slightly odd juxtaposition. I can speculate any number of reasons why it wound up that way but in the end it doesn't really matter. I would bet the farm on it never having passed through Himmler's hands.

Not wanting to offend anyone by the comparison, knowing how sensitive - rightly - a lot of people are to Himmler, his acts and what he stood for but to give an example, is the presidential signature on your Eagle Scout diploma really real? Mine isn't.

Speaking for myself, if this gun didn't have the Himmler signature engraved and the swastika, I'd view this as a nice example of base model French 16 made into a presentation piece and I'd welcome it in my cabinet. At about $400 or so.

Ger's post immediately preceding mine came up while I was writing mine and he raises a good point - St. Etienne was in the Vichy "Zone Libre" (at least until the Germans invaded in '42). So the part of my supposition that guns such as this one (and the one I saw and wrote about) were looted doesn't hold up, assuming the gun went directly from the factory at St. Etienne to Germany in 1941.

OTOH, the supposition that the gun was looted and sent back to Germany does hold up if one assumes the gun was not in the factory but was instead somewhere in the Occupied Zone. Recall, St. Etienne guns were (and still are) sold throughout France. These guns could have been made any time prior to 1940-41. (The one I described above had chiseled breech balls which were on the way out by the late 30s.) One of the French experts here can correct me, but IIRC during Occupation the Germans banned all private possession of all firearms. These guns could have been looted from the Occupied Zone either from seizures of merchants' stock or from private individuals who complied with the Germans' decree and turned them in. And, making things happen being what it is, I can easily see it taking a year from the 1940 Armistice until the guns got to Germany and were reproofed.

Alternatively, the guns could have been in the St. Etienne factories and gone directly to Germany but without having been "looted". They could have been part of a barter transaction. Or a German manufacturer could have scooped them up for a bargain price after the makers' market in Occupied France evaporated and the maker was stuck with them. Wouldn't have been the first time....

Hitler did have a place on the Obersalzberg, but Himmler, Goering and others also had houses lower down on the mountain, and support troops had facilities in the area. I spent many nights in one of these that had been taken over by US forces, and renamed "General Walker Hotel". The Rod and Gun Clubs had the annual Convention and Trophy Show there. When you see the area and understand the joy of victorious troops, it is easy to understand how items coming from Himmler's or Goering's house might be remembered as having come from Hitler's. It is also easy to understand how items might be traded between the troops and precise location of capture not be too important at the time. Also, I'm not convinced the inscription is to a "sniper"(in our understanding), but rather to a good "shot" or "shooter".
Mike

Mike, I fear, they were really snipers..!

For those, who want to know more about the background of this presents an excerpt from a letter of Himmler to his cousin:

Mein lieber Max!

... Ich habe, wie Du vielleicht schon geh�rt hast, in der Armee den Einsatz der Scharfsch�tzen mit allen Mitteln vorangetrieben ... Jeder Scharfsch�tze bekommt nach 50 best�tigten Absch�ssen au�er Urlaub eine Armbanduhr von mir �berreicht, bei 100 Absch�ssen ein Jagdgewehr oder eine Pistole oder auch ein gutes Fernglas. Kann mir Eure Firma f�r den Zweck in meiner Eigenschaft als Befehlshaber des Ersatzheeres 50 und sp�ter noch einmal 50 St�ck solcher Ferngl�ser mit der Widmung: "Dem Scharfsch�tzen -- H. Himmler" liefern? Ich w�re sehr froh dar�ber!

Translation:

Dear Max,

(...) Every sniper with 50 confirmed kills will receive holidays and from me a wrist watch, after 100 kills a hunting gun or a pistol or a good pair of binoculars. Is your company able to deliver to me acting in my capacity as the commander of the �Ersatzheer� (replacement Army ?) for this pupose 50 and later again 50 items of such pairs of binoculars with the presentation engraving "Dem Scharfsch�tzen -- H. Himmler" ? I�d appreciate this very highly! (�)

all to find here:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428921

Cheers,
Gunwolf, who does not like this old Nazi stuff...

Gunwolf,
My first language is English, yours in German; I will defer to your understanding of the term.
Mike

Now, this is an interesting piece of historic information, Gunwolf.

With kind regards,
Jani