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Stan, discipline and distance. Few have enough discipline not to shoot and many hunters always have trouble with distance. But not all waterfowl only geese I think that the subgauges should never be used.

I believe the article was in Shooting Sportsmen in either 2004 or 2005.

I can agree with "few", but some do. Those are the ones who get the job done with the sub-gauges ...... like the clients from Louisiana. The few who can prove that the gun can do the job. No?

SRH

Oh yea, there are some highly disciplined hunters that are also great shots out there.

Then, was it right for you to say that it was irresponsible (for anyone) to use a 16 or 20 for geese (note that you didn't specify distance)?

SRH

Late to the party, but here goes...

Very nice Steve. I love pics of flushes.

SRH

Looking good Steve!!

All I'm saying is that the best tool for the job when hunting geese is a 12 gauge and that involves all aspects of hunting including differentiation of load availability, the shell availability in local stores, etc.

When using a subguage the window is just to tight and leads to far to many chances for a cripple and you have to consider overconfidence plays a big part as well. Only when I see an Olympic trap shooter enter a 20 gauge to go up against the 12 gauges will I change my mind. And that, will never happen.

Geese are for the big boys. And big good beats little good all the time. Ask any football coach.

Dead is dead, and a goose killed with a 16 at 25 yds. is just as dead as one killed with a 12 at 30 yds.

Thanks for the discussion.

All my best, SRH

Treblig, you made a specific assertion about pattern density and gauge, you do not support your assertion beyond opinion and vague reference. While I make no arguement that traditional 7/8 20 ga, 1oz 16, and 1-1/8 12 loads yield identical patterns, but if you compare a 1 1/8 - 16ga with a 1 1/8 - 20ga there is not a ten yard difference in pattern densities.

In AC. Jones "Sporting Shotgun Performance" held on p.172 A two yard difference in pattern size between 20 & 12. The pattern density of equal weight loads are not the whopping 10 yards plus you seem to hold.

Yes 12ga loadings offer more heavyweight options, but to the hand loader given equal weight loads you can shot 16 and 3inch 20 much closer than you describe.

While I onceheld the shot stringing yeilded radically different results, Jones and other have shown minor percentage differences.

The challenge of trying to shoot 12 ga heavyweight loads through 16 and 20 sxs guns often goes to the weight and age of the gun with felt recoil and max pressures.