doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Antique is antique, where is the Vintage cut off?

CBack...You're right,
I guess the wine analogy was off, just cause it's old doesn't make it Vintage.
I always wondered when I hear..."Old Alf Garnets" family have been Gunsmiths here for 6 generations"....how long is that ?
You brits remember alf garnet..till death us do part in the late 60's?....wouldn't work today ...me n me dad used to love that one..Reg Varny in On the Buses anyone?


franc

As far as firearms go this is my understanding:

If it was made prior to 1899 it's generally considered an antique. However cartridge firearms for which ammunition is readily available are NOT considered antique.

If it's 50 years old it's C&R eligible and this advances every year. C&R firearms can be freely traded between licensees.** The BATF maintains a list of exceptions to this regulation which can be viewed online. Example: Although Thompson submachine guns by age are considered C&Rs they are still regulated as NFA firearms.

If it is newer than 50 years it's a modern firearm and all the FFL government State and local regulations apply.

** Keep in mind that some State's and municipalities have far more stringent regulations then stated above.

Antiques in general: My experience is that to truly be considered Antique an item must be at least 100 years old. The term "Antique" IMO is one of the most misused in collecting circles.

Classic is another term often misused. It was originally applied to automobile collecting and associated with limited production and expensive autos made prior to WW II. Now it's used in many other ways such as "This 1963 Corvette split window is a true classic".
Jim

NOTE: THE ABOVE STATEMENTS ARE GENERAL IN NATURE AND SHOULD ONLY BE VIEWED IN THAT PERSPECTIVE:

Here is what the dictionary states regarding "Vintage" of high quality and lasting value, or showing the best and most typical characteristics of a particular type of thing, especially from the past: a vintage plane. a vintage comic book.

Is a Winchester model 1873 made up through 1898 & chambered for the .44-40 an Antique by the BATF definition or not. My understanding is that it is so classified even though it fires a center fire cartridge which is still readily available. If it were made in 1899 or later it would not be considered an antique nor would any replica of it. On the other hand a replica of the .44 rimfire Henry would be because .44 Henry rimfire ammunition is not readily available.

This is one of the real gray areas in the mishmash of regulations regarding the status of certain guns. I've seen them handled multiple ways but to my knowledge no one has ever been charged with a violation for selling a pre 1899 gun as an antique regardless of what cartridge it was chambered for.
Jim

As far as vintage and antique shotguns......I know 'em when I see 'em.

You guy are not reading the laws right. Under the Gun Control Act of i968, any fire arm made before 1899 is an antique,regardless of what ammunition it is chambered for. Replicas made after 1898 and chambered for obsolete rounds such as .44 Henry rimfire or .52 Spencer rimfire are also not considered to be firearms under the 1968 Act. Muzzle loaders, regardless of when made and regardless of the ignition type are not considered firearms. The National Firearms Act of 1934 is the controlling law for full automatic weapons, short barrel rifles and short barrel shotguns, not the GCA'68. Thus a Colt M1895 machine gun falls under the requirements of the NFA of '34, and cannot be owned or traded without paying the transfer tax, but a Gatling gun operated by a crank falls under the GCA '68 and can be freely owned even though it might fire more rounds per minute than the Colt. The above statements apply only to Federal law, and some states may have laws that differ.

Can you cite an ATF ruling or regulation that says an antique isn't an antique if it take readily available ammo?

Any firearm manufactured before 1899 is considered an Antique Firearm under the Gun Control Act of 1968 by the ATF independent of ammunition availability. For example:

The ATF's Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has clearly stated in writing to me that all Chilean M95 Mausers made by Ludwig Lowe, Berlin are considered Antiques because Ludwig Lowe stopped rifle production when it was absorbed by other manufacturers in 1896, i.e. before 1899.

Please note that Chilean M95 Mausers are chambered for the readily available 7x57 cartridge.

Firearms Verification

National Firearms Act Definitions

Antique Firearm

26 U.S.C. � 5845(G)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term �Antique Firearms� means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

I think perhaps you're confusing the National Firearms Act with the Gun Control Act. The NFA deals with evil guns like machine guns, short-barrel rifles, short-barrel shotguns, AOWs, silencers, etc. Ordinary rifles and shotguns are not under the purview of the NFA.

Here is what the GCA (Gun Control Act) says about antiques:



Please note that the ammunition stuff only applies to paragraph B, which addresses REPLICAS. So, a gun manufactured after 1898 could be considered an antique if it is a replica of something made prior to 1898 so long as it uses obsolete ammo. None of that changes the fact that paragraph A states that ANY firearm made prior to 1899 is an antique. The modern ammo language of paragraph B does not apply to paragraph A.