doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Custom 1903 Springfield Mannlicher Engraved ID

Hi All -

I have stumbled across threads from this site for years but never registered. It seems that the most knowledgeable folks on 1903 Springfield custom rifles hang out here, so I decided to jump in and hope you all can help me on ID'ing a few pieces from my collection and maybe answering some of my newbie questions.

A little bit about me. I am in my mid '40's so I am a "younger" collector. I inherited my granddad's collection and have grown it quite a bit, mainly off of Gunbroker. My collection is mostly sporting and "western" arms as I am an avid big game hunter living in the heart of God's country in Wyoming.

Some of you may have seen this one on GB about a month ago. It had tons of views but then no one bid against me. I think I did pretty good at the minimum bid of $900, unless I am missing the elephant in the room. I have read and re-read both of Michael Petrov's books but can't say that any of the characteristics of this rifle match his descriptions. Based upon the Echo side scope mount, which is engraved to match the rifle with careful intletting of the stock to match, I am also thinking this is an early post war build, not covered by Mr. Petrov's area of interest.

The S/N has been moved to the side, 1382709 making it a 1931 nickel steel action. It has a silver bighorn on top of the receiver and a bighorn head on the floorplate. The action, scope mount, barrel, floor plate, and trigger guard are engraved with scrolls. There are silver inlays in the scrolls on the barrel and the floorplate. It has a Lyman 48 receiver sight as well as the Echo scope mount with a ramp front site and Lyman bead. The bolt is polished with engraving and checkering on the straight handle, and the action is smooth as butter. It has a steel grip cap with checkering and a nice checkered butt plate.

The Mannlicher stock has very nice large checkering, with a diamond pattern under the forearm. It has a nice cheek piece and some carving between the cheek and the grip that I will describe as wings. I cannot find any numbers or makers ID on the steel. The only marking I have found is on the wood under the action, where it says "SUPERIOR" in simple block letters similar to the "HUTTON" letters in Petrov's book, which really doesn't mean anything. The wood to metal fit is excellent. It fits so tightly that when I first received it from the cold UPS truck, I could not remove the action or floorplate due to the fit and the old cold congealed oil build up. After warming up a couple days it came off with difficulty and a lot of caution.

I have seen this buttplate a couple times before, including one on a Paul Jaeger, and there is a thread on Gun Values board with a stock carved just like this one. Check it out:

Gun values board

I have pictures to post but I am going to have to figure out how to do it. In the meantime I am attaching a link to the GB listing.

Gunbroker

It came out of Las Cruces, NM. The seller knows nothing of the history, he found it in a pawnshop. My theory is that it could have been a presentation piece to some scientist or officer at nearby White Sands.

I am looking forward to any information you may have. Many thanks in advance, Harold

The first thing I quickly note is the 'straight 'bolt handle and the restamped ser#.
The straight bolt handle was a trait of the very early production '03s,,the low# rifles.

The restamped ser# throws a red flag up for me on a 1903 that the ser# you now see on it could be misleading in that it could have been purposely stamped as a 'high number' to take the rifle out of the less desireable 'low#' catagory.

The old style straight bolt also being a clue to a low# 1903 may have been left in the rifle by an uninformed conversion wizard.

There are probably other minutia to tell the age or era of the recv'r that I'm not aware of.
I'm not saying it IS a low# recv'r, but I'd at least suspect it and investigate further.

The low# recv'rs are very hard and to engrave them (or drill/tap them) you have to break through the case hardened surface.
Carbide engraving tools will sometimes do that for you but the smoothness of the cuts won't be there.
Another way is to polish through the 'case' to get to the softer core metal. A lot of work.
The usual way is to anneal or at least draw back the hardness to a degree so you can cut it.
That would include both the rec'vr and the bolt body here if that was in fact the case.

The nickle steel actions cut pretty well as they are.
The double HT actions are still hard on the surface as the Low#rifles but sometimes can be cut through with little problem,,some not.

The reddish cast of the re-blue on the rec'vr and the bolt body (handle) is another hint in that direction IMO,,common to casehardened parts.
...But also could be the result of other re-bluing problems and could show regardless of steel type and HT.
If the latter, I'd expect the red color to also show up on all the other metal reblued parts assuming the projects parts were colored at the same time which would be a most common occurence if depleted salts, poor temp control or cleaning were issues.

FWIW, the engraving looks to have been done with an air assist tool, not hammer & chisel. Better closeups of the engraving would pin that down. I only mention that as the air assist/hand held tools didn't become popular/available till the mid/late 60's. Then they really exploded onto the engravers scene in the 70's with many of the people starting up at that time using them from the get=go never learning to use a hammer and chisel or a hand held push graver.
It helps 'date' work at least as 'before or after' when you can confirm the use.

Just some thoughts re: the engraving & bluing, relocated ser# ect.
Some are safety concerns/observations here that I feel should be mentioned.

"... The seller knows nothing of the history..."
There was recently a thread here on a well documented Low#;03 sporter with many years of use that suddenly let go.

Dear "Wind River"

Welcome to the forum, here is my guess on your rifle, I think it was
done in Japan after the war. Japanese gunsmiths were allowed to
work on firearms that were owned by American servicemen and many
brought their rifles, handguns and shotguns over there to be worked on. A friend Whitey, who contributed to his board until he passed away, told me that he supplemented his pay by taking guns with him to Japan, having them engraved and bringing them back to the US and selling them.

My father won the engraved rifle in the tread linked below.
The work was done in Japan.

engraved 1903

He paid about the same price you did, Michael Petrov wrote me that a guy couldn't get the engraving done on the floorplate for what he paid for the whole rifle.

You did good. You got an interesting rifle for about the same price a person would pay for a new Model 70 Featherweight.

Going to try and add to these points from a differing point of view.

Admitting I haven't owned many 1903's, I had never seen (a factory) one with a straight bolt handle.
Here is one that is only 32k above 800,000 with the arced handle, so those with the straight handle must have been really early.
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/604619759

My initial reaction to the restamped s/n was slightly different.
Prior to 1968, if the s/n was in the way of engraving or for any other reason it was often removed. Most commonly seen on sporterized and custom Mauser rifles. No need to restamp it, as their was no requirement to have a s/n until '68.

From '68 until some time in the '80s or '90s it was common for gunsmiths to move the s/n (as on this rifle) if it were in the way of engraving or other modifications. The ATF put a stop to moving of s/n's (legally) without filing the proper forms and sending the receiver to the properly licensed (07FFL Manufacturer) to have the number moved.

So when I see a moved serial number, my first thought is 'possibly made in the '68 to early '90s' era.

This does not mean I disagee w/ Kutter, only that there are other possibilities.

Thank you Kutter and PhysDoc,

I was also suspecting Japanese engraving but did not want to "taint" the responses by stating that up front. When I figure out how to post pictures I will get some good closeups and send them along. The engraving has little marks or gouges every so often in the grooves, I am not sure what that indicates. Thanks for pointing out the intrinsic value of the engraving PhysDoc, that is why I bought it because I thought it was beautiful and maybe it will change my luck on drawing a Wyo bighorn tag!

I did read the posts from BrentD about the low number Springfield grenading. Scary. I will start a thread in the future about a Sedgley I have questions on. It would be a bummer if this was a faked high number rifle. As Kutter said the only real reason to do something like that would be to deceive others for resale. However I can't imagine anyone would shoot a heavily decorated rifle like this very much. I would like to shoot it once, to chrony it and just see how it performs but I have other field grade guns for regular use and this one could just be for show.

The red cast to the receiver is a little odd looking although not as bad in real life as it is in the pictures. Interestingly my everyday hunting rifle is a Model 77 Ruger in .280 Rem which has a similar color to the receiver and has never been refinished. It just started changing over time.

I do have some pics of military markings on the bottom of the receiver that I will post. While they are light, under the chamber I think it says "R" and "NS" with three punch marks nearby. There is also a "3" on the left side under the Echo mount. The bottom of the receiver has nice smooth dark gray parkerizing, more like my 1923 dated 1903A1 NRA sales rifle than my late 1918 barrel date/early 1920 receiver date service rifle which is rougher parkerizing. I wonder if the rifle may have been built with an early low number receiver, then rebuilt with an NS receiver later but the bolt kept as it was previously engraved and polished? Sounds like I need to check headspace. FWIW, the bore is bright but shows considerable wear in the front half. However, there is no wear of the blue at the muzzle, so a reblue at some point is very likely. Another clue might be the trigger - it is the serrated kind, just like the 1903A1.

I also forgot to mention that the stock has visible cast on when stood in the rack next to other rifles. I am not sure why they used cast on, especially with the cheek piece and the Echo mount centering the scope on the bore. But it shoulders and comes to point of aim quickly and intuitively, not awkward in any way.

Thank you all for your comments, I appreciate them. I don't really know anyone around here to talk to about this kind of stuff, so I think I will enjoy being a member of this forum a lot. H

the action looks like it has a red tint and i would think nickel steel,it has a niedner but plate.it looks like a nice rifle, and its hard to tell about the engraving

All right I have created a photobucket with some pictures. Hope this works. I apologize in advance for my poor photos. I can take more if someone needs to see something else, just ask. Thanks.
[img]http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/hjhuts/media/IMG_6402_zpscxw1hrwu.jpg.html?sort=3&o=7[/img]

Utah Shotgunner,

I know where I saw this buttplate before - it like the one on your recent 1950's Paul Jaeger custom rifle post. Mc said earlier it is a Niedner butt plate.

Interesting points on the S/N question. The bolt on my 1918/1920 service rifle has a rearward sweep to it. It is not straight down like the one on the Mannlicher. I will have to look in the Poyer book.

I had a look at the bolt last night - it is marked "8" and a punch mark under the bolt root, and "S" under the locking lug. It only has one gas hole near the front of the bolt, not another behind it and one in the side like a late NS bolt. The handle has been thinned down quite a bit from a military one. Is there any issue with the steel in the bolts from a low number rifle, as long as headspace is ok? I have always heard of problems with the receiver, not the bolt itself.

Those old Niedner buttplates are hard to come by. Bought a rifle once, removed plate, fitted a NoS white line pad and sold the rifle.