doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Anciens Establissments Shotgun help

Thank you! Could you explain which is the date stamp? I have a link to some of the Belgium proofs (that I got from this site) but I'm not great with deciphering the meaning of the proofs. What is a Z-M proof in final state?

From what I can see:

You don't have to worry about the "20 in a 24" thing; it's a normal 16. "Normal" for that period would mean 2 1/2" chambers, so you would need the older short shells to shoot it.

Looks like a medium/low grade gun that wasn't taken care of as well as it deserved. I consider ALL "family guns" worth keeping, so I would at least clean it up and kill any active rust. A search of this forum will give you ideas about how to do that properly. Among other things, "properly" means SLOWLY and gently. I use bronze wool and Kroil on the metal, soap and warm water on the wood. A worn-out SOFT toothbrush is your friend.

Somebody else needs to comment on whether that crossbolt in the stock is original or a repair, and, if a repair, whether IT is worth repairing.

IMO at the very least an interesting gun that probably could be returned to the field with some $$ and some "elbow grease."

Hopefully, others will be more specific about model, value, etc. Beyond my pay grade....

^ Thank you Mike! I will pass the cleaning information along and also ask about the cross bolt. I believe it has had minor repair work through the years. The story went they were ordered to destroy weapons in a particular town in Europe (the name escapes me) and this gun was somehow saved before it met its end. He will be delighted at new ways to clean it.

There is no date code.

The gun barrels weighed 1.320 kgs or 2.91 lbs at time of proof. The chamber was 75mm long with a diameter of 18.9 mm. The gun was nitro proofed for 16ga. The barrels have side clips.

It was proofed some time between 1898 and 1924. The "pour poudres vives" on the barrel indicates to me that the gun proofed circa 1900.

The Crown over N on the barrels is an old Controller of Proof mark.

It displays the Pieper Demi-Bloc and Bayard trade marks. I will try and find the model number if I can. On the whole it is a mid level gun. Pieper could produce much better or much cheaper.

Pete

Yes there is Peter. Have a gander on the left flat just below the Zella-Mehlis gauge designation. Right underof the 16 C in athe rhombus. The Z-M marks look oversramped by the Belgians.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Pretty sure the cross bolts are original. Here are two of mine.

The 16/C in the Diamond simply denotes it is chambered for a 16ga shell without actually specifying the length. This gun was proofed in the era where all guns receiving a Nitro proof had to have chamber length & diameter specified. As Pete stated this is 75mm (2.953") long or essentially a 3" chamber. The diameter was measured at the largest point or just inside the rim seat. The 18.9mm converts to .744" which is well within the range for a 16ga chamber. It would taper down some .015" to the forward end just ahead of the forcing cone. This situation fits the 1898-1924 date range Pete stated.

Having trouble locating my 1911 catalog but my post war catalog does not show any models with the rearward extension of the upper portion of the receiver, as it is on the OP's gun and on this example:



The first two guns I posted, with serial numbers just four numbers apart, are from 1922. I believe the more ornate 3rd gun (Model 485E) is a pre WWI gun but post 1905, as I think the OP's gun is.

If it's a Anciens Establissments Pieper, it has to be post 1904 as that firm was established in 1905.

edit: Found my other catalog from 1911. The OP's gun lines up pretty well with a Model 370 as far as features and level of engraving goes.

I consider myself to be somewhat cognizant of Belgian marks or I can look them up in a text or Pete's site. But Peter & 2-piper might need to knock the dust off of their monocle and have a closer gander the ensemble of marks as I'm 110% certain that the subject sporting weapon passed thru a German proof house & I'm nearly that certain that it was Z-M. I challenge any and all to prove otherwise.


German touchmarks noting proof in the final state more than likely at the Z-M facility.


Crown over W - constriction

Encirced 16, etc. - bore

Date & ledger number which are almost illegible but an 8 is visible in the date-code.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A (very likely stupid) question: do those 75mm chambers mean that, all other things being safe, this gun should be OK with standard US 2 3/4" lead shot ammo?