doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Schlegelmilch Gunmaker & Thieme & Schlegelmilch

Popped in on Ford, The American, on a Saturday afternoon after he returned from his typical Saturday morning pond shooting, where they were shooting some 10,5 mm variant. We again discussed the Schlegelmilchs and Walter Grass. Amazing how they spent years time in Russian POW camps, then returned to discarded, antiquated equipment but still continued to practice the trade. I would say the segue into the conversation centred around what was the tube steel source post WWII up to say 1950.





Ford has quite the collection of horn, some of which are noted in articles he penned in GGCA publications and were harvested w/ a Sauer & Sohn 9.3x72R S&S.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
The photo in one of your above posts is not of Alfred (Fred)Schegelmilch. Rather it is a photo of Gerold Pfeffer, who was an action filer at Heym that also worked for Walter from time to time. It was amazing to watch him work. He is shown working at Walter's vice, because the best light was there. As an aside the barrels he is fitting are 9.3x74R double for my Heym O/U. The cutoff drilling barrels(hakenstuck)with the reamer are at Fred's vise and are from the Meffert drilling mentioned. It should be noted that it is very easy to incorrectly ID something based on only one or two initials. Different people had the same initials, and they were not "official" identifiers anyway, they were just used to keep up with who had what pay coming. The maker's marks sometimes found on guns made "for the trade", however, are positive identifiers.
It may be interesting to note that Fred's son was training as a gunsmith and had earned his journeyman's certificate by the time I left. He is likely another Schlegelmilch "Meister" now.
Mike

Thanks for the correction there Ford. Tell us more 'bout the reamer.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Corrected:






"The foto in one of your above posts is not of Alfred (Fred)Schegelmilch. Rather it is a photo of Gerold Pfeffer, who was an action filer at Heym that also worked for Walter from time to time. It was amazing to watch him work. He is shown working at Walter's vice, because the best light was there. As an aside the barrels he is fitting are 9.3x74R double for my Heym O/U. The cutoff drilling barrels(hakenstuck)with the reamer are at Fred's vise and are from the Meffert drilling mentioned. It should be noted that it is very easy to incorrectly ID something based on only one or two initials. Different people had the same initials, and they were not "official" identifiers anyway, they were just used to keep up with who had what pay coming. The maker's marks sometimes found on guns made "for the trade", however, are positive identifiers."

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
The rifle barrel had been drilled out with a twist drill ( after being opened up with a piloted counterbore, to keep the drill flutes from catching on the extractor cut), because the rifle chamber was too tapered for a hand reamer. The shotgun barrels had been opened with reamers, starting with a size to fit into the shotgun chamber, and stepping up to one sized to clear the new shotgun tube. Since the rifle barrel had been drilled, the hole needed to be reamed, to adjust it to correct size to clear the new rifle barrel shank. The reamer, being used is a common adjustable reamer, adjusted to size. This type reamer was possible, because the barrels had been cut off and it was a "through hole". Note that the barrels had been drilled/reamed before being cut off. By turning the reamer(or drill)in the headstock of a "speed lathe", and centering the barrel being worked on with the tail stock, while "dogging" the barrels with a hand vise against the lathe "way"; the original "convergence" of the barrels was maintained. This way allowed the work to be done, without more sophisticated equipment, and time consuming "set up".
Mike

"Those are typical forge marks and the "R.S." set of initials, or the other set, completed the firearm. This example looks to be a WWI or possibly post WWI example and hints at the fact that an example with a tube or tubes stamped "R.S." could be valid for Robert Schlegelmilch of Suhler Waffenfabrik Robert Schlegelmilch up till 1923, with a proof date being in 1924 or possibly later."

These are pics of my 1898 Mauser Sporter, 8x57J
Comments on the marks possible dating, interpretation of markings or? are welcome!





These two identical marks with a K inside a rosette form with a broken stamp are particularly strange to me!

A couple more of the Mauser 98 action bottom and side proof marks.

SDH-MT
Steven,
The 21143 Is located where we expect to find the Mauser serial number on commercial actions sold to "the trade". You can confirm this, if the same number appears on the back of the magazine box(note: sometimes there is a different number here, as a product of parts being mixed up in the gunshop). If this is confirmed as a Mauser commercial action, it would be dated well before the 1920s. I haven't taken the time to look it up, but I think it would be 1909-10. As I recall my ca. 1912 is in the 52000 series. The 7,7 is the bore diameter, expressed in gauge; the lack of a case length in mm, indicates it predates 1911. Suhl didn't start dating proof until later. Suhl didn't generally mark the ledger number, but sometimes did early on. The 480 might be a ledger number, but it would be very understandable without a date; therefore it might be something else. Since the rifle is marked Schlegelmilch, it would be highly unlikely for the RS to be for Robert Schlegelmilch. Such marks are generally meaningless, except to designate who was to be paid for what "piece work". You would think he knew what work was done by himself, or in his shop. There were numerous other "S" names in and around Suhl. The two K marks, however are logos, I believe of the barrel maker( maybe Kelber).The Crown with Crown N is the nitro proof for rifles, pre 1911 it was generally seen near a stamp for the proof load.
Mike

Yes Mike, the serial number (21143) is stamped on the back of the magazine box and 43 on the sear and set-trigger kicker. According to Speed the number fit in the range 1908 of his BU marked list.

I'm confused about the difference between Suhl and Suhler=Waffenfabrik? Town and manufacturing Co.?
But I also wonder if this was Oberndorf made? But no BU marks?

The time frame is correct to my thinking, Pre-1910.

Thanks for your help in confirming my thoughts and filling in the gaps, and for new info. Is this the same Schlegelmilch that made the shotguns?
SDH

Steven,
The action was Mauser Oberndorf made. The Mauser markings could be left off at the request of the buyer, or taken off by the buyer( most likely left off). Suhl was the town, and had(has) a very good reputation for gunmaking. Having been made in Suhl, in a "Suhler Waffenfabrik"( Gun Factory from Suhl)was a sign of quality, in an advertising sense, rather than any kind of official sense. Whether he was the same one that made the shot guns is difficult to say, there were a lot of Schlegelmilchs in the business, some of which with the same/similar given name. You would have to confirm name/address/time frame fit both the shotguns and your rifle.
Mike