doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Early Greener hammerless sidelock...

Mike,

I read an article (DGJ??) about a gun converted from percussion to pinfire and finally to centerfire. Though I don't think this gun is a conversion. The proofs are just too late for a conversion IMO.

Where are the earlier proofs? Not only does the 'Choke' mark date it as later, unless it was jug choked it is unlikely a muzzleloader would have had any choke.

Mike, Yeah...on the Barber & Lefevers, they maintained the outside hammers

Utah Shotgunner...I think that's just about right for the late conversion period...when was the partnership with Barber? 1870's...obviously, I'm not sold on Cabela's date of manufacture either...the proofs on the watertable could answer some of these questions...conversion or not, it looks to be a Greener factory gun except for maybe a replacement stock and and buttplate

I was just saying that it's a possibility...It is one the very few Greener hammerless sidelocks I have ever seen (other than St. George guns)...Greener is almost synonomous with boxlock

I had to re-read your post....How could that action be converted to hammerless ?

The original Greener "St. George" gun was a boxlock.
A nice pic can be found.
DGJ Spring 2007 p.123
Same with Boothroyd p.118

It's not my area, but I've never seen a Greener with sideplates like that, and I can't recall ever seeing a British gun with checkering like that. From that standpoint, it looks more like a graded American gun from the same period. If I stumbled across it in the shop, my first blush assessment would be that I was looking not at a fake, but at an unusual "target gun" of the era ... a Greener special ordered by an American or perhaps built for that market. The gun's configuration and the pigeon engraved on the rib make me think it was intended for shooting live flyers rather than for field use. And I might be dead wrong. TT

I did notice a safety...Are the Elephants on the barrels Greener's Mark ?
I'd say it was restocked years back...nice job. I don't see it as ever having hammers or nipples.

MARCH 9 1887, THE FOLLOWING APPEARED IN THE BRITISH MAGAZINE SHOOTING.
In answer to your memo, all our guns are named as under;-
On lock plates, "W. W. Greener";on top rib,between barrels, "W.W. Greener",in plain Roman capitals and one or more of the following addresses:"68 Haymarket, London S.W." St;Mary,s,Works,Birmingham;"8,Avenue de L'Opera,Paris,"also on all guns over 12 guineas,"Winner at all the London Gun Trials 1875, 1877, 1878,1879," or "Winner at all the London Gun Trials,"There will also be found on each gun our trade mark,"an Elephant",a serial number of five figures, and we can also tell guns of our make by private marks.
There are many imitations or fraudulent representations of our name. Signed, W,W. Greener.
Could it be that this gun is one of those giving concern to the Greener family? The date of manufacture of the gun in question coincides with the date of this publication!

I doubt that gun is a conversion.

It does remind me of this:

http://www.montywhitley.com/antique_arms_fine_sporting_guns/SHOTGUNS/1382

I think Scott had something to do with the early Holland Royals. I would have to look it up to be sure, though.

I bet Greener bought the gun in the white from someone else and then finished it off.

The checkering looks like some Greener-styles that I have seen. It's interesting that it doesn't have a border on it. Again, this is something Greener did on his guns. I don't really like it, but I guess they did.

I can't decide on a restock or not. Also, the triggerguard looks reblued and some other pieces look refreshed, but I would have to have it in my hands to really tell.

Regardless - it does seem very over priced.

Also, I think it's a true Greener. I think the quote above is in reference to stuff like this:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=74346763

I've seen a lot of Belgian POS guns marked Greener.

OWD

Greener is pretty heavily involved in sidelock production today, although that has nothing to do with our attempts to identify the gun in question. Someone mentioned asking Graham Greener. I think any interested buyer should shoot the serial number off to Graham by email to see what he has to say about it.

OWD...now that I recognize...that's a Jennsen finished Pieper...JABC...I've owned about 8 Greeners over the years...but never a sidelock so I am completely unfamiliar with them...the bird engraved near the rib extension looks the same as other Greeners that I've seen...I'm going to bow out here, as I know very little about all the Greener model variations