doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Vexing Questions this Election Cycle

I like then both as they are both strong shotguns. Granted at the expense of handling but the Winchester is going to gain in price over the years whereas the NID probably will stay the same. When you hand your grandkids the Winchester they'll thank you, if you hand them a NID they'll look at it and say, "what's this."

Just the way it is in American shotguns.

Mmmmmm ----. The fashion for American shotguns of this era leaned strongly to duck guns for 12 bore. These two brands & models in 12 bore tend to have duck gun handling, as one would expect. If you want game gun handling, you buy a 16 or 20 bore. The Brits, on the other hand, made 12 bore game guns aplenty. If you wanted "duck handling" you bought a 12 (or 10) bore fowler. This does not show any deficiency of design. Rather, it shows that it is not wise to try to make one gun suit very different purposes. IMHO.

DDA

I always believed that the American guns forte was, buy this gun at a reasonable price and hunt everything that has feathers or fur. A slug in one barrel and bird shot in the other, kind of hunting.

Stronger actions, certainly. Better craftsmanship, definitely. Better fit and finish, of course, but not at the price you can buy an American gun for.

most likely heavier loads for rough shooting here in America- and the old "One gun man" theory-- as opposed to incoming head shots on driven game and lighter loads. Once, by mistake, a few seasons ago, I had a 12 AA Trap load ( 1&1/8 ounce 7&1/2 1250 fps. in the chamber of a Model 12 I was using for waterfowl-on the river nearby- two sizeable Canada geese game in silently, on a foggy and overcast morning in early Nov. and I shot by instinct (incomers are my favorite shot- bum, belly, beak, bang-) and the lead honker dropped like he was pole-axed- 12 yard shot, by my estimate, and a full choked Model 12-- But that was a fluke, and I have triple checked my waterfowl hunting parkas and coats for "illegal" lead loads ever since.

Foxy, that's all they could afford is one gun. Look no further than the Battle of Blair Mountain in West Virginia, a whole lot of double and single barreled shotguns were recovered from the coal miners.

When one has but one gun, one shoots what one has. Wise selection of loads can help considerably with the handicaps of but one gun. Many/most shooters will buy purpose built guns as soon as they can afford to do so.

Brit "utility" (think BLNE) fowlers are generally proofed for 2 3/4" or 3" shells and, if one respects their service pressures, quite robust. They weigh, balance, and swing much like their American counterparts. Their price point was not all that different.

DDA

I agree, but a English gunmaker will build you a masterpiece to hunt waterfowl, then another masterpiece to hunt upland game, and another to hunt dangerous game, all individually hand made, whereas the American gunmaker compromised and offered a gun that can be used across the board at a price people could afford given the salaries at that time.


The used gun market today means relatively little as an used English BLNE can be purchased by someone earning even a modest income. Howver, can that same person order a new CSMC Model 21 or Fox or a new James Purdey?

Look at the current pump shotgun market and compare the price of a new Remington Express with a new Remington Wingmaster or a new Ithaca Model 37, all guns that can be used to hunt everything under the sun, what is someone going to buy earning a modest income.

Good point- who can afford to buy the new guns shown in the recent great issue of SS magazine, let alone the used British guns offered by the various fine dealers (Vintage, Robin Hollow, Joseph's) among many fine purveyors of quality "previously owned" doubles, both side-by-side and over and under. 1% of the working Americans? Mainly doctors and lawyers and such, to paraphrase the late Waylon Jennings- also Hollywood celebs, entrepreneurs, Warren Buffet incomes.

One reason that this thrifty and retired old Fox never buys at auction, usually privately or from a handfull (small handfull) of dealers- when I have the CIF-- (cash in fist) I don't trade, and I don't sell off a gun in order to get the funds to replace it with an "upgrade". Like SS editor Chris Batha said in that issue- "I have champagne tastes and a beer budget" in his article about travelling with guns- what to take, etc. page 26, July/August 2016 issue. And Tom Huggler'to the point ending column is a great read, Tom must be close to my age- takes me back to township dump Saturday afternoon "rat shootin'" parties..

The Winchester and Ithaca are both immensely strong and built for the American consumer. However, the difference being that the Winchester has that BIG name on it that is recognized across the globe. But, similar to the great English makers, that name was earned.

True but back when you bought a side-by-side from WRA, they were made in England under contract. When you bought an Ithaca back then, they were made in Ithaca NY (home of Cornell, John M. Olin being an Alum from that college I believe. Ithaca was able to buy out the defunct LeFever operation about 1914, and survive during the Depression without selling out (WRA, A.H. Fox an Parker Bros.)--The basic difference, besides the cachet of the great M21, they are not a double operation fitted side-by-side. They are fitted after the 4140 steel has been heat treated- tricky indeed. The other great American doubles were double-fitted, first fitting in the white- final fitting after case hardening.A M21, like a M12, given reasonable care, will hold up forever- but so will a Fox, Parker, Ithaca, LeFever, L.C. Smith- assuming proper care and careful selection of proper loads for the gauge, chokes and chamber lengths of said shotgun(s)--