doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Head Shaker

I don't mind stupid or dishonest or even a little bullshit in sellers sometimes for simple reasons. Sometimes they are that way and I can still work out a deal. Guns are too broad of a group for anyone to know everything, so dealers, like us can be a little dumb about some things. And seller do not point out all the flaws any more than they have to so most deals have a little hidden "dishonesty" to them. But you have to figure out why they are that way. To me it is just like buying a truck. You would never take the word of the salesman so I don't on guns as well.

First before I go to buy any gun I make sure that I have done my homework and know what I am buying. Look at the gun, they don't lie. They are what they are. You trust but verify and there is nothing better than buying the gun in person. Much harder to miss anything if you see the gun in person and I don't trust any description as being anything more than the most optimistic and generous spin on any gun for sale. Internal flaws are impossible to "see" so I test function and have to take some risk. But if it does not function right I never buy a gun. Repairs are never as simple as you hope and the number of guns that have been worked on, and screwed up worse, is huge.

Second I find that sellers who don't know what they have either price guns way too high or too low. They rarely get them right for some reason. If too high I dicker a little and if they keep the sale price way above what I think it is worth I walk away from the deal. After all you can not buy them all and never pay more than it is worth because you will never get your money back out of it later. If the gun is priced too low I look at it even harder to make sure that I am not missing a major flaw. Been there and done that as they say. Sometimes a low priced gun is that way for a reason.

Third if you come across a dealer who is "dishonest" you have to determine why he is that way. Hiding things you need to know? Claiming to be an expert, when he knows less than squat? Is he in fact very knowledgeable but is lying outright to your face? Sometimes a dealer who is "lying" is just covering up that he does not know what he has and if you educate him the price might come down. I am buying a gun, not the dealer, not long term service, not even a return privilege. I buy it, I own it warts and all. If he is knowledgeable and is a lair I refuse to deal with him because chances are he is smarter about the deal than I am and I hate dishonest people as a rule.

And fourth the best way to get rid of the bullshit factor is have cash in hand. I have had prices fall when a seller sees cash in my hand and that I am buying or willing to buy right then, not pricing or thinking about a future purchase. You count out and lay down your final offer in a row of hundred dollar bills and watch the seller decide if he want to sell or not right then. Most times it works but when it does not I just pick them up and move along. Most times the deals you don't make are just as good as or better than the ones you do make.

One nice thing about Cabela's: They will transfer guns from one store to another. Fairly frequently, I may have something to offer them in trade anyhow, so I'll usually cough up the $25 to have it shipped from a distant store to one closer to home--and where I may know (and have dealt with) some of the GL guys.

The stories are endless and mostly pretty forgettable, especially in chain gunstores or, more properly, chain stores that sell guns. I hear guys who clearly know nothing about guns selling stuff to guys who also don't. I just stay out of it. If nobody asks my opinion, they don't get it, even for free and sometimes it's worth about that--I don't savvy "black guns" nor nor plastic guns nor Turkish or Chinese guns. (Sometimes ignorance really IS bliss!).

But HANDLOADING advice is another matter--I might well be standing next to Bubba when the bomb goes off....

Recently heard a clerk at a major SoCal chain tell a customer that he COULD just substitute Unique measure-for-measure for Trail Boss (which the store was out of). "Just fill the case like Trail Boss." That time I DID open my big mouth. I've heard a few similar doses of handloading expertise over the years, always in a chain "gun store."

I have found Cabelas very inconsistent on that... The last several times I've asked they said, "we don't do that "

Nice write up on reminding that the buyer should be aware. I think pretty often there are stories about getting great deals, so it probably cuts both ways. If the clerk is a rocket scientist, then the sale price will reflect it.

Here's a link to a current Gunbroker auction where a refinished 1946 Lefever Nitro Special is being described as an O Excelsior Grade Lefever that was built between 1910 and 1916.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/568182061

I wish I had a job where I could be so totally completely wrong, and still remain employed.

Is that reference their policy of shipping from one store to another? If that's the case, it must be a fairly recent change in policy . . . or maybe just one store? I've done it several times, shipping from various stores to the Owatonna MN Gun Library. And I never got a "no" from anyone. But the most recent was about a year ago now, so there may have been a change. If so, that's too bad.

Keith, here's another one...

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/568551372

Although I see this gentleman has amended his explanation a little...someone must have mentioned to him that he's a bit...confused.

I say BOO to that! Ignorance on the part of gun stores and even other collectors, is what makes it even possible to collect graded Lefevers, unless you a blessed with outsized wealth and can simply write checks. Almost every gun in my collection has a funny story about how I acquired it, the conversation with the seller I had, etc. And every last one was bought for a fraction of it's market value.

My favorite is still the guy (about 3 years ago) who insisted he had to have $1,000 for an early Lefever grade A...because he saw on GunBroker that [Ithaca-made] "Lefever A-Grades" in excellent condition go for that.

I complimented him on his keen sense of value and uncommon knowledge, and agreed to his price.

- NDG

I should add, on more than one occasion, I have spoken to guys who described having a Lefever Nitro Special with some "added engraving," or something along those lines. At least two times it turned out they were looking at a graded, engraved sideplate Lefever.

Sadly, both of those were not in good enough condition.

But at least I had a crack at them! Consider the opposite is usually true with other makes...most notably Parker. Every old guy who's ever had a VH 12 gauge on a #2 frame come through his shop in decent condition wants to price it like it's a DHE 20 on a #0. They often don't even know anything about Parkers...they just "know" that other people say they are "the best."

Sort of like people who ONLY drink Caymus or Opus One when they drink wine. They don't even know what good wine is...only that other people talk about these, and they clearly cost a lot...so that means they're "the best."

With collecting, it might be an annoyance, but in reality it's what makes finding a gem even possible. And in general, other than when they VOTE, I find ignorant people to be quite useful.

- NDG

Here is a grade 1 Flues 20ga described as a 4E. At least the "E" was right.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/567908120