doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com hit a brick wall regarding info on my drilling

Hello DGBBS, I picked up this (what I assumed was a) German Drilling a few months back and just recently started to research on it. What I do know is:
It is Stamped "J Vogel" on the R. barrel.
"Strassburg I ELS" on the left barrel.
Water table, if you can call it that, is just stamped with a visual inspection "crown over U" and Kiel proof house stamp.
Under shotgun barrels are stamped with your expected 16 ga proof marks, nitro proofed, R barrel is cylinder bore (crown over S), left is choke (crown over W)Both stamped 2g Sch. P. over 27 gBI.

Rifle barrel is stamped with final rifle proof (crown over G) visual proof (crown over U) A bore stamp of 118/35 (cero cast, I know it is the common 9.3x72R and no, I did not scratch the caliber in to the barrel ) an unrecognized S stamp, an unrecognized MS stamp, a date of the 19th week of 1906 and what I assume in a SN, 14557.

Action is an under lever, with the somewhat common in my searching, three silver pin cocking indicators, light engraving with a post WWII repair screw going right though a four letter crest beginning with D P ? M.

So I believe it was made in the Northern part of the Alsace-Lorraine in Unterelsa� and was proofed in Kiel.

Anyone know anything else about this old girl? I know its nothing special and I know its long shot, but I figured I'd ask the best.











[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/paraframe/20160621_075011_zpsdf8bfijg.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/paraframe/20160621_075040_zpsairfbtlc.jpg[/img]

Thank you, everyone for your time.

[/URL]



Roux action from 1906 with @ least the lower tube was sourced from the Schilling forge and more than likely experienced proof in Suhl.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

AndrewM,

I have a few but I am certainly no expert so please take what I say with a grain of salt.

Is it possible that the DP?M could actually be a DR?M with the second letter that looks like a P actually being a light strike R? The reason I ask is that this means Deutsches Reich Gebrauchs Muster loosely translated "German Empire Registered Design". Also I did not find any reference to a J. Vogel in any of my books on Drillings. My assumption is that yours was "made for the trade", in other words one of the gunmakers made the gun to be sold or marked by a sporting goods shop. Prior to the gun being shipped it as engraved with the shops name. This was a common practice during this period of time.

Good luck in your search. I also sent you a link (in a PM) to a site that might be of further assistance.

Respectfully,
WBLDon

118.35 is the gauge of the rifle's bore @ .340" (8.636mm). At this point in time an actual measurement was not made but plug gages were tried in steps. Next step up would have been a 108.49 gauge or .350" (8.89mm). Thus the bore accepted the .340" plug but not the .350" one. Note this was the size of the bore, the rifling grooves would have been cut deep enough to accommodate the 9.3mm bullet diameter. This system was used until around 1912 at which time the bores began to be marked in mm size.
The 2 grams of Schultz powder with 27 grams of shot is a comparatively light load. Schultz was a bulk smokeless powder which was measured by volume equal to black. A 3 dram volume measured 42 grains. this 2 gram ,load would have been about 31 grains or a 2.2 dram equivalent. An ounce = about 28.35 grams so the shot load was a bit lighter than an ounce. It is my understanding that very few shotguns were given Nitro Proof in Germany prior to 1912. Those that were had light loads specified. The proof laws were rewritten in 1912 to better accommodate smokeless powders & I believe at that point smokeless proof became mandatory.

Andrew: Miller is likely correct, but "New Schultz" was introduced in the U.S. in 1902 and was a 36gr = 3 Dr. Eq.
(Slightly less than) 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. with 1 oz. shot would be a standard 16g load.

Miller is correct about the bore diameter. My experience, over the years, shows most rifles with this marking "slugs" out at around .357-.359". This means common American bullets are useable for handloading.
Mike

Not a whole lot of info on B�chsenmachermeister J. Vogel less he was active from the early 1900s till the 1920s. This 1906 example might just be one the earliest examples peddled w/ his name atop.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

It definitely could be an R WBLDon, now that I look closely, you can also see the crest of the G so that is one mystery solved.


So the S in the hexagon means its from Shilling Forge, ellenbr?

I don't reload shotgun shells but as long as RST lite 16 ga. 2 1/2 shells are safe I am set there. I have got some S&B 9.3x72r ammo and dies in hand. Reloading data is kinda sparse but 17 gr. SR 4759 and a 193 gr cast bullet is a published load which sounds a lot safer than 36 gr of 4064 which is wild to me, given the low pressure of the cartridge.

Clearly this is not a high volume shooter but it would be nice to be able to take it out once in a while.

Needs new firing pins but that is a simple project, one is still good, one is peened over on the back and sticks forward and one is broke off so I have plenty to go off of.

Here's a speculation, due to my research on a somewhat similar gun I have. As was noted before, it was probably a "Trade Gun", made for the seller and marked with the seller's name. Chances are good that it was made by one of the smaller concerns in Zella-Mehlis. It'll be pretty tough to figure out which one. Anyone have a list of the Zella-Mehlis makers?

Regards
Ken

http://www.zella-mehlis-geschichte.de/?Willkommen:Geschichte_der_oertlichen_Waffenherstellung:Buechsenmacher_und_Waffenfirmen