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Joined: Jan 2010
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Sidelock
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Daryl,
If you look at the second photo you can see the nipple in the recess. I guess it was an early form of hammerless - well at least concealed hammer. They must have been a fiddle to cap but I guess the big advantage is that any fragments of copper cap or powder would not end up in your eye. I can put you in touch with the owner if you like who will be able to tell you much more about the gun. I only had a few minutes to take the photos and I would have loved longer to investigate these unusual mechanisms.
Have a look at...
https://www.facebook.com/AjB-Shoots-316395508394137/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1222848707748808
Photos taken by Amanda Broomhead who is a professional photographer so you can order anything of particular interest from her web site

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Sidelock
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John, I can see the primer recess. Yes, hard work for fingers, let alone gloved ones. I wonder if special tools came with the gun. Is the gun Continental ? I love the engraving. Now how would one remove the spent primer ? My email is in my Profile if the owner would like to discuss it . Daryl

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Sidelock
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This thread has 2 terms new to me, "bank" gun and "tube lock". Can somebody please explain what is meant by "bank" and how a tube lock works?

Thanks,
Mergus


Duckboats, decoys and double barrels...
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Sidelock
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I am certainly no expert and I am sure someone - or many - will correct me if my understanding is wrong.
As I understand it a 'bank' gun wasn't used for robbing banks. It was used shooting from the bank of a river or lake and had longer barrels to help fetch the higher bids down.
The tube lock was a method of ignition around at the same time as the flint lock was making way for the percussion cap. The detonating compound was in the form of a small straw which was clamped in place over the flash hole. When the hammer came down it struck the tube igniting the detonating compound. Better than the flintlock but not as good as the percussion cap. The other two ignition systems we had on show at the last event, two years ago, were the pill lock and the scent bottle. When I get chance I will dig out the photos. The pill lock was similar to the percussion cap - but without the copper casing - so not as robust or protected. I will leave someone else to explain about the scent bottle as I could never quite see how it actually worked without blowing everything up!!!

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Sidelock
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I knew I had seen the thumb slide gun somewhere before: Christies auction of part of the Emil Rossner collection in Nov 2001.

The Charles Jones Patent Waterproof Percussion Gun. Here is a little on Mr Jones from IGC, followed by the auction catalogue description and photos:

Name Charles Frederick Jones
Other Names Charles & Frederick Jones; Charles Frederick Jones
Address1 26 St James's Street
Address2 26 St James's Street and 32 Cockspur Street
City/Town London
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun & pistol maker
Other Address 16 Whittall Street, Birmingham.
Dates 1822-1845?
N
otes

Charles Frederick Jones was the son of John Jones of Manor Row, Tower Hill (an armourer in the Hudson's Bay Company from 1785-1793). Charles was born in about 1800, and in 1814 was apprenticed to John Mason. He became a Freeman of the Gunmakers Company (by patrimony?) in 1822.
He was recorded in business at "Near the Helmet", St Katherine's, as a gun and pistol maker in 1822, and it seems his brother, Frederick William, joined him soon after the business was established. He was not recorded again until 1829 when, probably in addition to the St Katherine's premises, he had an address in Pennington Street, Ratcliff Highway. At this time his brother left to set up his own business. In 1831 he opened a factory in Birmingham at 16 Whittall Street. In 1832 he was recorded at 26 St James's Street.

On 7 March 1833 he patented a percussion lock with a cock, tumbler and trigger made in a single curved piece (concentric sears and triggers), and a waterproof sliding cover (No. 6394 in the UK but also patented France), and on 12 June 1833 an improvement with separate triggers and sears (No. 6436). The caps of these Jones patent guns fitted on to the hammer noses and had the fulminate on the ouside. This system was called centre-fire, and they struck the nipple and ignited the powder in the chamber.

In 1838 Charles Jones described himself as a "Patent and General Gunmaker", and later as a gun manufacturer. At about this time the firm had a shop at 32 Cockspur Street. There is no record of the firm in London after 1845, and the Birmingham factory may have closed in 1843, but Charles Jones was a member of the Acadamie de L'Industrie de France and the firm may have traded after 1845.

[url=[URL=http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/trw999/media/Fine%20British%20Guns/Jones%20a_zps9ejtwrmd.jpg.html][/url]][/url]

[url=[URL=http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/trw999/media/Fine%20British%20Guns/Jones%20b_zpsj5sd0iwc.jpg.html][/url]][/url]

Tim

Last edited by trw999; 06/14/16 03:06 AM.
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Sidelock
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Photos above now sorted. Lovely barrels that gun has.

Tim

Last edited by trw999; 06/14/16 03:07 AM.
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Thanks for the great pictures. Bobby

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Regarding the swing out mechanism, it is a Needham Needle-fire gun. Again one was featured in the Emil Rosner part collection sold at Christies in November 2001.

For background on Joseph Needham, IGC has this:

Name William Needham
Other Names William Needham & Co; William & Joseph Needham; Joseph Needham & Co; J V Needham; Joseph & Henry Needham
Address1 Royal Hotel Yard, Temple Row, Birmingham
Address2 26 Piccadilly, London
Address3 26 Piccadilly, London; 108 1/2 New Street, Birmingham
Address4 26 Piccadilly, London; 27 Cannon Street, Birmingham
Address5 53 Piccadilly
Address6 1a Wilton Place, Knightsbridge
Address7 6 Park Side, Knightsbridge
City/Town Birmingham and London
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun & pistol maker
Other Address Damascus Works, Loveday Street, Birmingham.
Dates 1842-1880

Notes

William Needham was born in 1801 but where he was born and who his parents were is not known. He appears to have been the elder brother of Henry Needham (b.1812 in Birmingham) who traded in Birmingham before moving to Vine Street in London. He also appears to have been related to Joseph Needham (b.1811) of Ashtead Row, Birmingham, who had a son named Joseph Vernon Needham (b.1836), the Birmingham gunmaker who was famous for the first successful ejector gun. In the 1841 census William was recorded living in Sherborne Road, Kings Norton, a few miles south of Birmingham. He was married to Suzannah (b.1801) and they had four sons and three daughters. His second son, Joseph was born in 1828 and became a gunmaker. William moved his business in 1841 to Royal Hotel Yard, Temple Row, Birmingham. On 24 June 1843 he patented a tube primer and special nipple (patent No. 9801 also covered under Scottish patent No. 103). In the same year a musket designed by him was rejected by the Board of Ordnance. In 1845 William moved to London where he opened at 26 Piccadilly trading as William Needham & Co. The name he used from 1849 to 1851 William Needham without the "& Co". In 1851 the name of the business changed to William & Joseph Needham, but this Joseph does not seem to have been his son who would have been 23 years old at the time, if it had been then the business is more likely to have been named William Needham & Son. The Joseph concerned appears to have been Joseph of Ashtead Row. It seems that this Joseph manufactured guns in Ashtead Row for William and possibly also for Henry who had moved to 4 Vine Street in London in 1849. Joseph was recorded in the 1841 census at Ashtead Row with his wife, Emma (b.1811), Joseph Vernon (b.1835) and Emily (b.1831). They were recorded in the 1851 census at 135 Ashtead Row by which time a second daughter was had been born. In the 1851 census Suzannah Needham was recorded at 26 Piccadilly as a widow so William had died. She was living with Joseph and George Henry and two of her daughters, and a few other more distant members of her family.

In 1851 W & J Needham exhibited at the Great Exhibition "A Patent Self-Priming Gun, Double and Single Guns to Load at the Breech, etc". On 2 October 1852 Joseph Needham of Ashtead Row, Birmingham registered patent No. 184 for a gun lock and the first successful hammerless needle-fire gun. He is known to have made needle-fire guns on the Rissack design. In 1850 Jean Jacques Rissack of Liege, Belgium patented a needle-fire gun in which the primer was in the base behind the powder as opposed to backing onto the over-powder wad, and the pin was either in the breech plug or on the hammer. Rissack's pistols and gallery rifles were very popular, the cartridges were made by Eley.

In 1853 the name of the London business was changed to Joseph Needham & Co. Henry was last recorded as a gun maker in 1856 at 5 Meards Court, Wardour Street. Almost certainly he died in that year and, because his son Henry (II) was only 14 years old, William took over his business on behalf of his mother Sarah. On 30 January 1865 J Needham and C H Russell registered patent No. 265 for a hinged and sliding breech block. In 1870 the name of the business at 26 Piccadilly changed to Joseph and Henry Needham by which date Henry (II) would have been 28 years old. Henry (II) however, later left the business and became a manufacturer of electroplated goods, returning to Birmingham by 1891 (see Henry Needham). The 1871 census records Joseph Needham as a 42 year old gun maker married to Eliza (b.1833 in Newbury, Berkshire) and living at 19 Orestan Road, Hammersmith. Their children were Helen L (b.1857), Kate (b.1858), Arthur J (b.1863), Horace C (b.1868), and Walter C (b.1869).

There seems to have been a great deal of co-operation between Joseph of Ashtead Row Joseph Vernon and Joseph & Henry Needham, but it is likely that it was primarily Joseph Vernon Needham's inventiveness that attracted the attention of W W Greener. In 1874 Greener bought the businesses of Joseph Vernon and Joseph and Henry Needham. In 1876 W W Greener moved the London shop to 53 Piccadilly. He continued to operate the London business under the name of Joseph & Henry Needham, but in 1878 moved the shop to 1a Wilton Place, Knightsbridge. In 1880 the London shop was at 6 Park Side, Knightsbridge, but after that date the Needham's apparently ran the business under the Greener name. The 1881 census records Joseph as a visitor staying with the Beddoe family at 12 George Street, Birmingham. His wife, Eliza, and Ellen, Kate, Arthur, Horace and Cecil were living at 14 Hammersmith Terrace. Arthur was described as a gun maker.

On 2 October 1883 George Henry Needham registered patent No. 4693 for a revolving chamber for drop-down guns and a butt plate safety mechanism. In the 1891 census Joseph and Eliza were recorded living at 6 Hammersmith Terrace, Hammersmith, with Helen L, Arthur J, Horace C and Walter C. Joseph described himself as a gunsmith, his sons were described as gunsmiths and workers in all metals. By the time of the 1901 census Eliza had died but Joseph was still living at 6 Hammersmith Terrace with Helen Louisa, Eliza Ann Kate, Arthur Joseph and Walter Cecil. Joseph described himself as a 72 year old living on own means. Horace C was not recorded but Arthur Joseph and Walter Cecil were described as brass workers on own account.

The only known records of the Needham firm exist in "Needham's Action Book" currently held by the firm of W W Greener. This book only covers the years 1886 to 1926 and serial numbers 1254 to 5000 and 6001 to 9892, lower numbers are known.

Here are the catalogue photos and description:

[url=[URL=http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/trw999/media/Fine%20British%20Guns/Needham%20a_zpsvusf5uow.jpg.html][/url]][/url]

[url=[URL=http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/trw999/media/Fine%20British%20Guns/Needham%20b_zpsuvgftvmt.jpg.html][/url]][/url]

Tim

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I knew there would be someone out there who had the encyclopaedic knowledge - for any youngsters out there substitute Google!
John

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Tim and John, thanks. Both are fascinating guns. Daryl

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