doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Idle pursuit of the ideal 20 ga

NID is New Ithaca Double. Bobby

Francis Sell. Francis Sell. Ah, yes, now it's coming back: a 20 for everything. He spread it in every shooting magazine of the times. His pious looks and round shoulders didn't give me all that confidence but I tried it. The key to 20s for average shooters is to remember they aren't 12s. I pick my shots even with my go-to three-inch o/u SKB. I wouldn't think of using my elegant Elsie 20 except for dilly-dallying for grouse.

That is just the beginning. Go find the thread on custom Foxes, and look at the time, trouble, and money that have been poured into projects. A lot of guys seem to have figured out either they couldn't shoot a gun with 3" of drop, or, didn't want to.

My opinion, old guns are a lot like old cars-you have to want to use it to keep it going. Some guys get lucky, and some guys get stuck. Seen and owned good English guns that have turned into money pits, too.

All my shooting is rough shooting. I'm getting over the decoration and trying to find out what works best, and using that in the time I can dedicate to bird season, always less time than I'd like.Taking a header down an icy drainage ditch embankment is always a possibility. I figure the gun should be worth less than the medical care I need to straighten myself out after something like that.

The no-tox thing is looming large as well. I can't promise my sub gauges will survive that.

I wish you luck. When you mentioned the part about funds, something I understand all too well, the first thing that popped into my head was to tell you to find a Beretta Silver Snipe O/U in 20 gauge with 28" tubes and to never look back.

It would do the job, beautifully.


Best,
Ted

My favorite 20 is a Beretta Onyx with 28" barrels, 3" chambers, and Mobil Chokes. It's light, reliable, pretty , and will do anything a 20 ever needs to do. The old Onyx with 28" barrels can be hard to find, but worth looking for. And Cole can fit double triggers and fancy wood if that is your preference.

If you are seriously thinking abut another 16, consider a Parker VH on the zero frame. Carries and handles like a 20, but if you have to go to non-tox, the 16/0 may not be a good choice because they often have light barrels.

just look for a new or at least modern version....the folks selling OLDER guns think the 20 is made of gold....buying a new one or recently produced one its usually the same price as the 12 is selling for.....don't get drawn into the game....and for God sake don't go paying what they want for reproductions of old classics...that's a fools game...for sure

Never been a huge fan of the 20-bore but have owned and shot a few. All but one were by vintage American double gun makers, with the only example owned presently being a rather rare 20 gauge AE Syracuse that is slowly being restored; and I own that gun only because of my interest in SAC gun research. Among those I've owned was a very nice Flues 2-E that I had restocked to modern dimensions using a beautifully figured piece of American walnut. But I never learned to shoot than gun worth a tinker's toot; as at just under six pounds, it was simply too light for a person of my size. It was so light I was unable to consciously maintain sound shooting fundamentals, a steady swing and follow-thru after the shot. With that gun fundamentals were out the window, as for me it was "poke and shoot". I owned a 20-bore GHE Parker for a time; a gun that I loved and which I'd also re-stocked to my dimensions, and a gun I shot very well. But seems Mr. DelGrego could never fix its original Parker single trigger, a trigger that worked fine on crossers but would fail with every attempt at a high overhead incomer; and not only failed, but deactivated the entire gun save for opening and closing! My 20-bore DHE Parker repro worked find with its single trigger; but I could never adjust to its stock dimensions. Twenty bore American guns I've enjoyed using with good results were an 00E Grade LC Smith and an XE Fox; but I'd still prefer a good 28 gauge, 28-30" barreled over-under to any 20 gauge side x side that I've ever owned. Twenty bore double guns are neat to own and fun to shoot, but I don't see them as the "holy grail" of double gun bore sizes; nor as the best solution for the average gunner. If I were looking for a twenty gauge shooter, the first thing I'd decide is my preference for esthetics; as the truth is one spends a heck of a lot more time fondling and looking at his new piece than he'll ever spend shooting it (and if everyone here is an honest man, he'll confess that a Flues model Field Grade Ithaca is butt-ugly esthetically; that esthetics are very important to the double gun nut, and that one really needs to aspire for a Grade 4 as his minimum if one wishes to own a handsome Flues). Then, after determining which maker's style best fits his tastes; find an example that has the right stock dimensions, balance, and weight for his size and shooting style in order to provide the best opportunity to shoot the gun well, for one will quickly become disillusioned with his new wonder-wand when nothing falls to the shot. We can, and we have all adjusted to crazy stock dimensions; an easy adjustment to make at the shooting range, but an extremely difficult task when tangled in brush and vines during an unexpected flush. And finally, although cost is a very important factor for all of us, I'd save my cash till I found the gun I really wanted to own. For in reality, and as double gun enthusiasts, we have all repeatedly re-learned this single truth over and over; one does indeed get what one pays for. Good luck in your quest.

King, no O/Us please. I'd just as soon take my ol 870 Remington as an "built wrong"

I'm not so pessimistic about nontox being the wave of the future, so I'll take my chances there.

3" drops aren't so bad. My favorite double, fit-wise, is the Cashmore and it has a 3" drop albeit measured from the rib, not the bores' centerlines. The Merkel at 2.5" is also comfortable enough, but the Evans at 2.5" also is very hard to get behind. It would be much better with 3".

I'll have fun looking and topgun, I think you are right about being patient. Indeed, I'll just by twice if I don't buy right the first time.

BrentD;
As I said I have no experience with pheasants, late or otherwise. I had just assumed that most late season wild pheasants would be longer shots. thus my assumption that most early American 20 gauges would no truly be suited for the job.
the Lefever is the particular favorite of mine in American doubles. That said though, I have never owned one smaller than a 16. While there are others out there most 2o gauge Lefevers one finds will be DS grade with steel barrels. If you can find one of these it should serve your purpose well. Personally I would have no qualms with using it with regular "High Brass" 1 ounce loads but would not Magnumize it.
The Lefever is certainly a far better looking gun than a Flues & also has a stronger frame. The Flues & 20 gauge in particular, has a reputation of cracking the frame when used with the heavier, even non-Magnum, loads. In fact I am quite certain they earned this reputation after the introduction of the 2 3/4DE-1oz loads back in the 1920's prior to magnum loads being available in the gauge. The NID was introduced to correct this problem with the newer heavier loaded shells then available.

Connecticut Shotgun's RBL-20. American made, shoot anything you stuff in it, decent prices used and even not too terrible new.

BrentD,
I know you said 20ga and the 20ga is wonderful. However, Rev Drew suggested a Fox in 16ga. I think this is an outstanding suggestion if your goal is vintage. I have an SW in 16ga w/28" barrels and it weights in at 6lbs 2oz.. heaviiiiier 20ga territory but still LW IMO. They are built on a 20ga frame and I wouldn't think twice about running a dozen 1oz modern shells per year thru it. Although, for the price of RST's, a couple of boxes won't break the bank for pheasant hunting.

I believe IF no-tox becomes a serious issue in upland, I would think RST or polywad will step up. I have been watching the no-tox (steel) comments as of late and B Dudley, from what I see doesn't think steel is an issue with the modern shot cups. Maybe he will chime in, or perhaps others with steel experience will comment, as it will be an issue for all of us concerned about cost.

Hope this helps,
Bill