doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Darne's age

Can someone date this License Darne for me please. It's a 12 SS Halifax No 3 s/n 41521

You haven't given us much to go on (a photo of the barrel flats and the gun itself would tell so much more) but, graded Halifax guns were pretty much a product of the 1920-1930s.

Best,
Ted

Hi Ted, you answered me as below back in 2014 but since then I'd seen one in a museum that was 1898 vintage, so I was wondering if the s/n was actually traceable to the 1930's as you suggested, or could it be an earlier model.
Tim
PS I have other photos but can't figure out how to post them
T

#360466 - 03/10/14 10:03 AM Re: Darne license [Re: Hasbin]
Ted Schefelbein Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/02/02
Posts: 5042
Loc: mpls, mn.
A Halifax was built by Darne. At the time this gun was built, there were so many other manufacturers building copies of sliding breech guns that they put that stamp on the Halifax to assure customers it was an actual Darne product, as opposed to a copy.
Originally, the gun had 65mm chambers, about 2 1/2". It was proofed in St. Etienne for smokeless powder T, and the gun was proofed in a finished state. It is a 12 gauge. At one time there were grade 3, 4 and 5 Halifax guns, mid 1930s, and that is about when this gun was produced. It appears to be single proofed, most lower grades were.
A few more pictures wouldn't hurt a thing.

Best,
Ted

The earliest Darne catalog in my possession is 1909, and there are no Halifax version guns listed. Unless it was the NRA museum, or the museum in Leige, I'd be suspicious of a date of production of a Darne a museum was displaying, based on serial numbers. Halifax Darnes were the field implement of the Darne sliding breech design, with production that ebbed and flowed with the condition of the European economy. If there was an attempt to keep historical records as to production of Halifax guns at the Darne company, I'm not aware of it. Serial numbers are not that useful for dating Darne guns. I can go by when the guns showed up in the catalog, and that is about it.
Did you post a picture of the gun at one time? It seems I noted proof with French smokeless powder T, which puts production at year 1900 or later, since the proofhouse started using powder T in 1900. I would have needed a picture or description to get you that.
If you email pictures to me, I can post them for you. Click on my name in the post to get to my profile, and, email address.


Best,
Ted

Thanks for the info on Darne Halifax's powder proofing you posted as an aid to dating the gun. The one I saw in a London UK museum was a double gun with a sliding breech and it had lots of filigree on it but otherwise it looked a lot like mine and it had a date of late 1890's on it's display-case nameplate. that's why I ask the question. Here are the photos, I have. Since they were taken I have cleaned up the gun quite a lot and have repaired the horn buttplate. I am taking it to a gunsmith later this week to get a worn pin in the breech release handle changed but I don't think I'll ask for any other work. Let me know if you see something that should be done, please. (I don't want the cost of smithy work to get away from me unless it's absolutely necessary)

The barrel flats on Tim's gun:




View of the breech:


I don't see anything on your gun that would change my opinion of its vintage. I would make sure your gunsmith is familiar with the design (warning-most gunsmiths are not) and have the work done that he advises.
If you are unsure, Kirk Merrington can work on it. So can J.J. at Champlain. Geoffroy Gournet can, too. Those are the three I would use.

Good Luck.

Best,
Ted

Ted, I defer to your estimate of the Darne's age and it is confirmed by the Armurier at Darne itself in Ste Etienne, France.
Their message of yesterday is copied below
____________
Bonjour monsieur
Votre fusil a ete fabriqu� entre 1920 et 1935
Cordialement
H Bruchet
_____________

Thanks and best regards,
Tim

Wow, actual validation. Sweet. You would think I imported them for 15 years and went to France and hung out at the factory and the library in Lyon or something.

You are welcome, by the way.

Any of you guys that study barrel marks know the origin of the letter B on the lump? I've seen it many times, but, don't know how it figures to Darne guns, per say.

Thanks in advance,

Best,
Ted

I've only seen it on Halifax guns. So maybe...and this is strictly an uneducated guess....maybe it denotes that the barrels have been brazed?

Dustin,
Good as anything, I guess. I have seen it on other guns besides Darnes. Never paid attention to how the barrels were fashoned, however.

Best,
Ted

"The name of Bruchet, is permanently associated with that of Darne, now appears on the barrels, with the latter."
The above is translated from Darne's current website and refers to the barrel manufacturer's long association with Darne. I'm guessing that B symbol is Bruchet's logo.
Tim

Another idea comes to mind....Do you think it could denote "Boxlock"?
Tim

Tim,
Paul Bruchet started with the Darne company in 1964, and worked his way up to foreman of the V Darne line. He managed to purchase the remains of the company after it was embezzeled out of existance in the late 1970s. The first guns he produced were not permitted to use the Darne name on them, anywhere, so, they were marked "Bruchet". Paul died in 2009, and had been semi-retired for some time. Permission to use the "Darne" name in the trademarked script came a few years into Paul Bruchet's production of the guns.
His son, Herv�, is still with the company, but, no longer in an ownership position.
The Bruchets would not have been associated with the Darne company at the time your gun was produced.
Also, there is nothing even remotely similar between a Halifax Darne or a boxlock of any manufacture. They are different as night is from day, and the word "boxlock" should never be used to descripe a Darne gun.


Best,
Ted

No. It ain't a boxlock.

What is the meaning of "blitz stacked barrel system" and does it have anything to do with this subject?
Thanks for the enlightenment Ted. I didn't mean to challenge your expertise, albeit inadvertently....Tim

I'm going to defer that question to one of the German/Austrian gun guys. I've never seen the word "Blitz", used in the same sentence with the words "French gun".

Doesn't mean it never happened, I just have never seen it.


Best,
Ted

I have seen the trigger plate actioned guns built in Germany referred to as Blitz Actioned. I believe the word Blitz itself translates to something on the order of extremely quick, or Lightning.

Ted, am having fun playing with the R-14 16ga I acquired recently. I'm beginning to think it won't even need trigger tuning! The only serial number I see is F 579. Not sure what that means, if anything.

However, here's something you may find of interest: When I remove the barrels, I see two words next to the hole in which the lump fits on the water table (or what you'd call water table on a break action double). The one on the right is quite clear: Nantes, which is self-explanatory. The one on the left isn't as clear, but it looks like it might be Bruchet. Last 3 letters are definitely -het. Would that be the gun shop that sold the gun??

Pretty hard to say, Larry. That serial number should put the gun in production well before the Bruchet's involvment, either as workers or owners.
Sometimes you will turn up a sliding breech gun with a triangular mark on the flats that has the leters VU in it, most often on sliding breech copies. That means it made it to the Darne shops for something, repair, typically, and the mark literally means "viewed" or seen by Darne.
If you are having fun with the gun, that is a good thing, Larry. What took you so long? Dustin and I will blow some raspberries your way, and thumb our noses, for good measure.
Better late than never, eh?


Best,
Ted

Larry, show us a photo or two. Like to see it. What are its specs-wgt, chokes, barrel length? Gil

Larry has put his toes in the water several times before. But this particular gun is nice enough he will come out of the " closet" for. Avery nice example, and you have no idea how happy I am he likes the triggers. The engraving is really first rate.

This is my 3rd time with a toe in the Darne pool. I was fascinated when I first saw Darnes on my first trip to France, back in 1976. Nearly bought a Charlin 16--plain gun, but very nice condition--when the wife and I were touring France 20 years later. The first Darne I owned had been restocked in very nice wood by a guy who did mostly trap stocks. Misfit on a lightweight bird gun. Second one had an odd grip angle that made it difficult for me to reach the front trigger, even though the LOP was on target.

This one is a 16ga, weighs just under 5 3/4# with barrels just shy of 27". Chokes are a very reasonable .008/.014. Straight grip, swivels, and very nice wood with fine double-bordered checkering that looks as if it might have been recut at some point. I do photos via email, but I've avoided trying to post them on BB's.

Can't see any unusual marks on this one, other than Nantes and the word ending in -het on the water table. I do see "epreuve surchargee" next to the double St. Etienne proofmarks on the underside of the barrels. Don't know whether one typically sees "epreuve surchargee" on Darnes, but an overcharged proof is what you have with the two proofmarks, so that's logical.

Larry,
Gunfit, is all important. For some reason, people decide to buy a Darne, often the lowest condition and grade gun (think Viet Nam bringback) discover it doesn't fit them, sell it to someone else it doesn't likely fit, either, and then pronounce them all the same. We also get people who believe them to be "rare", uncommon, and some sort of mystery, when, counting all the clones that were produced out the back door of the Darne factory, the number produced approaches very closely a million. There are also people who believe they simply don't or can't work well.
Well, if a Darne fits, it works about as well as anything else. And, there are a LOT of them out there, maybe not in Podunk, but, there is a whole world out there beyond podunk, Abner.

I make friends as the range all the time when I am out there with mine.

I'm glad you are enjoying the gun. When I was the importer, I met people who bought a Darne from me, and simply sold everything else. I will note that I don't fall into that catagory, but, I do love my Darnes, and my go-to hunting gun is still the R10 I got from Steve Bodio and had restocked to fit me at the factory in St. Etienne. For reasons I do not understand, policemen, firemen, and architects, in that order, were over represented in my customer base. By a lot.

Use the gun in good health Larry.


Best,
Ted

Ted, I seem to recall seeing production figures on the Manufrance Robust, which I've always thought of as the French equivalent of a Stevens 311 in terms of sales, but obviously a much better gun. I believe that number was in the vicinity of 800,000. A Darne brochure I picked up in Rouen (would've been the summer I taught in France, 1977) which states the following:

"It has been more than 90 years since Darne first brought out its side by side with fixed barrels, now famous worldwide where more than 300,000 of them are in service . . . "

Clearly kinky, but certainly not rare.

The only thing that might keep me from using it a lot when bird hunting is the safety. I'm guessing that it will be like hammerguns: I wait for the dog to go on point, take safety off, and flush the bird. But I'm having fun playing around with it. Glad I finally got one that both fits and does not have godawful triggers. I think Dustin may remember a fellow Flatwater attendee who had a Darne with what I think were the heaviest pulls I'd ever experienced on any double. But I've found that even break-action French guns often have fairly heavy pulls.

As you can probably imagine, the logistics of cross border gunsmith work is daunting to say the least (Mainly due to return paperwork on the Canadian side). So, I'm going to undertake re-finishing the stock myself. I've had a good look at disassembly and I should be able to separate the wooden component myself and do it properly. One thing that I'd like help with is repairing the lever for releasing the breech assembly from the receiver plate so it can be pulled to the back of the receiver track and out. Normally, this release lever is visible, projecting about 1/4" proud of the breech undercarriage at its rear end. Recently, this little lever has become barely visible and you have to feel for it with a homemade plastic tool to engage and depress it. This is a nuisance and I'd like to fix it, rather than live with it. Can anybody speculate as to what is causing the lever to "hide" and does it indicate a worn out pin, a bent cam, or worse.
Any ideas will be much appreciated.
Tim

I'll post this chart again. Ted points out errors in the chart.



I will say that when we discussed this on Dating Early French Shotguns....a couple of things came out:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484199&page=4

1. The chart notes 26,000 guns made by Darne between 1910 and 1925 - using the numbers Axxx, Bxxx, Cxxx....Zxxx. Take out the war years...26,000 guns in 11 years = about 2350 guns a year.

2. By using dated Didier Drevet barrels we established that the chamber measures on Saint-�tienne guns changed in mid 1912 from cm to mm. It was later refined to after June 11, 1912.

3. We found two Darnes which actually make the chart look pretty good:

-- A Darne type 18 12 guage with Darne made barrels SN C692 on the barrels and 692 on the gun and chambered for 6.5 cm (pre June 1912)
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/670294785



-- a Darne type 10 20 gauge with Darne made barrels SN C643 on a gun with the number 643 and chambered for 70 mm (post June 1912).
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/671021768



-- C692 would = 2,692 gun on the "alphabet series" from sometime in 1910....It could put it into summer 1912 (with some shoe-horning, a allowances for expanding production post WWII, etc). Just saying.
-- C643 - ditto

Given this analysis....Larry's gun SN F579 would be 5,579th gun produced after the alphabet series started sometime in 1910. It could make it late 1913, early 1914? If Darne started off in 1910 producing fewer guns but gradually ramped up production, it could put F579 after 1918, but this might stress the curve a bit. (Presuming of course that Darne produced no domestic shotguns during the war, something that might not be true). (And remember Skeetz has a Didier Drevet gun with barrel dated 1918).

Defer of course to the expert. -- and photos would be much appreciated. If Larry will send them to me, I'll post them; he has my email someplace. Gene

Gene,
I am relatively certain that Larry�s gun went down the road some time ago. There were issues.
Even when there are not issues, he really doesn�t seem to hang onto guns.

Best,
Ted

Ahhhh, an astute psychological assessment of the situation. But but, now we need to know "why?" Is this a certain promiscuous tendency brought on by too much association with Paris early on in life? Oh well, the dating analysis of the Darne goes with the gun not Larry. Now if I were to date Larry, I'd have to ask questions.....
-- did he wear bell-bottoms?
-- have side-burns?
-- does he know about "Blue Suede Shoes"?
-- can he do the "Twist"?
-- What was a "hootenanny?"
-- did he ever aspire to be a surfer?
-- Does he know about making "Jack" "Hit the Road"
-- What does "The Man With No Name" refer to?
-- Explain "Paladin"
-- what goes on "around the clock?"
-- Did he ever encounter "The Wild Bunch?"
-- What was "Mo-Town"
-- Did he ever think about Zen while fixing a motorcycle?
-- And what smells great in the morning?

(Oh man...now I understand....I didn't even look at the date of this resurrected post....foot in mouth disease).

Maybe you could ask him "What was it like when Grover Clevland was president?" or "Which unit did you serve in in The Big One, you know WWI?"